Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

It's implied. You accuse me of having in my heart to kill (as if that's a sin) and I asked if you accuse Christ of the same thing? No direct answer implies your answer.

You asked me that question in post #635.

I replied in post #637 - “No. I acknowledge that he will do what God has appointed him to do.”

How many people, in addition to yourself, if asked, do you think would say that’s not a direct answer?

 

[walter]

Well, you're certainly welcome to your opinion.

Thank you for your respectful words.

Fact is, this thread is about the reasons for the Crusades and no one should doubt that is exactly what the Crusaders would say. “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill“

You're certainly welcome to your opinion also.

Even if this thread is about some other subject, I use every opportunity to let Jesus words shine bright, Jesus does talk about the sword of the spirit, and how it will cause division in a person's family, not peace!

Do you have brothers and sisters in all the nations in the world? Is it possible to observe all Jesus words and engage in war against your own brothers and sisters?

 

[walter]

Ecclesiastes

Do you have brothers and sisters in all the nations in the world?

Does Ecclesiastes or any book in the entire Bible give instructions to engage in war against your brothers and sisters of the same faith?

 

[Matthias]

Sure. It’s the teaching of @Wrangler. He owns it.

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill“ - Wrangler

They obeyed the teaching of Jesus, even unto death. They weren’t armed and they weren’t ready to kill. By the standard of Wrangler’s teaching, assuming that it is correct, the only conclusion we are left with is “They weren’t followers of Jesus”. Why? Wrangler tells us why those who aren’t armed and ready to kill their enemies aren’t followers of Jesus - they are “over-spiritualized” and “Men in form not in substance.”

Their blood cries out from the dust of the earth. Wrangler‘s teaching is a witness against them. Wrangler, not Jesus, is a witness against them - and Wrangler didn’t want to look at their history, calling it “misdirection”.

I thanked Wrangler for (presumably) being consistent in the application of his judgment. If he had any sense he would repent.

P.S.

I shouldn’t have to say this again but I find that I should: Wrangler’s teaching is wrong; Wrangler is wrong. Well-documented and preserved Christian history proves it.

For the first three centuries or so, Christians refused to arm and they did no harm to their enemies. They can for that reason be thought of as conscientious objectors.

The Catholic Church has a Feast Day for Conscientious Objectors, November 11.

The patron Saint for conscientious objectors is Saint Martin of Tours.

St. Martin of Tours - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Saint Martin of Tours was born in in Savaria, Pannonia in either the year 316 or 336 AD. That region is what is today the nation of Hungary. His father was a tribune, which is a high-ranking officer in the Imperial Horse Guard. Martin and his family went with his father when he was assigned to a ...

www.catholic.org

The earliest Christians were - contra @Wrangler - men in form and in substance.

 

[Wrangler]

You accuse me of having in my heart to kill (as if that's a sin) and I asked if you accuse Christ of the same thing?

I replied in post #637 - “No. I acknowledge that he will do what God has appointed him to do.”

How many people, in addition to yourself, if asked, do you think would say that’s not a direct answer?

IDK but why not apply that to me; have great respect for me doing what God has appointed me to do - in being ready to kill people just like Christ?

A friend of mine was talking about the Brown University massacre from last week. It reminded him of a similar shooting at a mall where a devoted Christian took out his.44 Magnum and took the murderer out from 60 yards., saving many lives. Like the twisted Left in this country, pacifists sympathy is with the wrong group.

 

[Wrangler]

Even if this thread is about some other subject, I use every opportunity to let Jesus words shine bright,

Have you met Amigo de Cristo? In every thread he posts truisms that have nothing to do with the topic.

In response, I sometimes throw in truisms of my own. Don't eat yellow snow. A penny saved is a penny earned. War is bad. Peace is good. Early to bed ...

 

[Wrangler]

Does Ecclesiastes or any book in the entire Bible give instructions to engage in war against your brothers and sisters of the same faith?

"of the same faith" and family are qualifiers to an unqualified observation. You're trying to limit a universal truth revealed in Ecclesiastes. There is a time for war and the Battle of Tours, Siege of Malta, Crusades, WWI was such a time.

 

[Matthias]

IDK

I do. Unless they are mentally incapacitated, zero.

You aren’t mentally incapacitated. Something else is driving you.

but why not apply that to me; have great respect for me doing what God has appointed me to do - in being ready to kill people just like Christ?

Messiah didn’t commission his followers to be ready to kill their enemies, and certainly didn’t appoint his followers to kill one another.

A friend of mine was talking about the Brown University massacre from last week. It reminded him of a similar shooting at a mall where a devoted Christian took out his.44 Magnum and took the murderer out from 60 yards., saving many lives. Like the twisted Left in this country, pacifists sympathy is with the wrong group.

 

[walter]

Have you met Amigo de Cristo? In every thread he posts truisms that have nothing to do with the topic.

In response, I sometimes throw in truisms of my own. Don't eat yellow snow. A penny saved is a penny earned. War is bad. Peace is good. Early to bed ...

I will see if I can find Amigo de Cristo.

I think we have something in common, we both love Jesus and his Father and we have a respect for the Bible. Even though we believe differently, we both love Jesus words he took the time to give us.

 

[Matthias]

… have great respect for me doing what God has appointed me to do - in being ready to kill people just like Christ?

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

The earliest followers of Jesus weren’t armed and didn’t kill their enemies. That’s historical fact.

You want me to respect you for teaching that followers of Jesus weren’t followers of Jesus?

“Men in form not in substance.”

You want me to respect you for teaching that followers of Jesus were men in form not in substance?

I could go on but as I began writing this out to analyze it, something jumped off the page at me: You want me to respect you.

You don’t respect me and you want (need and demand) me to respect you. That, I suspect, is what is driving you to say that a direct response isn’t a direct response.

 

[Wrangler]

For the first three centuries or so, Christians refused to arm and they did no harm to their enemies.

Unable to arm. Refuse to arm. Not equal.

What evidence do you have that your claim is true? And what rational connects your supposition to the topic of this thread?

Your reference a link seeks to make exceptions the rule. The Battle of Tours kept Europe Christian.

 

[Matthias]

War is bad. Peace is good.

You aren’t looking for my advice, and you can’t obtain from me what you want, but I’m going to offer you this small piece of advice: meditate for a minute every day on those six words.

 

[Matthias]

Unable to arm. Refuse to arm. Not equal.

That’s true, but what makes you think the earliest followers of Jesus were unable to arm?

What evidence do you have that your claim is true?

Well documented history.

And what rational connects your supposition to the topic of this thread?

Violence, Christian violence, is the topic of this thread.

 

[Matthias]

Like the twisted Left in this country, pacifists sympathy is with the wrong group.

My sympathy isn’t with the wrong group.

“… overcome evil with good.”

(Romans 12:21)

“War is bad. Peace is good.”

Paul knew that. He didn’t kill his enemies after he became a follower of Jesus, and he didn’t join the police force / military.

How many times was he confronted by people who wanted to harm him? He didn’t fend his attackers off with a sword / weapon of the world.

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

Paul, a follower of Jesus, wasn’t “armed, ready to kill.” Paul wasn’t a “man in form not in substance”.

“The weapons we use in our fight are not the world’s weapons …”

(2 Corinthians 10:4, GNT)

Paul was armed though (Ephesians 6:10-18) and he overcame evil with good.

 

[Matthias]

“Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Messiah.”

(1 Corinthians 11:1, TLV)

“Copy me, just as I am copying the Messiah.”

(NTFE)

That is what the followers of Jesus are called to do.

“But the first thing Jesus is going to do when he returns is…“

Yes.

Will Paul copy Jesus in doing that when he returns? I believe that he will.

Will all followers copy Jesus in doing that when he returns? I believe we will.

Wait for Jesus to return.

Read Ecclesiastes while you wait. “There is a time for …”

 

[Nancy]

The crusades were a real pain in the a'

Your posts have been reported. Very inappropriate.

 

[Wrangler]

You aren’t looking for my advice, and you can’t obtain from me what you want, but I’m going to offer you this small piece of advice: meditate for a minute every day on those six words.

You continue to show your over-spiritualization. Just because there are bad things in this world does not mean we are absolved of the responsibility to deal with our soulful needs relative to what is bad. It's not only a spiritual matter.

 

[Matthias]

Fight the Messiah’s war in the Messiah’s way in the Messiah’s seasons.

How did he fight in the season when he was here? Paul copied him. The other apostles and the earliest followers of Jesus did too. So should all followers in the present evil age.

How will he fight in the season when returns? Paul will copy him then. So will all followers copy him then too.

The most resistance I ever received in response to a sermon I gave was to a sermon on the imprecatory psalms. The men in the congregation were divided and the women in the congregation were disturbed (not at the men; at the thought that sermon applied to them).

 

[Matthias]

You continue to show your over-spiritualization. Just because there are bad things in this world does not mean we are absolved of the responsibility to deal with our soulful needs relative to what is bad. It's not only a spiritual matter.

You continue to show that you don’t know how to act in season and out of season. You aren’t imitating Paul; you’re imitating the world.

 

[Wrangler]

That’s true, but what makes you think the earliest followers of Jesus were unable to arm?



Well documented history.



Violence, Christian violence, is the topic of this thread.

What makes me think earliest followers of Jesus were unable to arm? Because they were subject not citizens. Again, (illegal) exceptions don't make (legal) rules.

"Well documented history." You cannot make a claim to support another claim. This is what you do; evidence is not your burden. Just assert theoretical notions.

"Violence, Christian violence, is the topic of this thread." The reasons FOR this violence has not been explained by you despite having superior knowledge.