Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

I see. Moving the goal posts again. 1st, you speak in the negative, who Jesus did not command to fight with a sword.

Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest followers of Jesus didn’t do what you you say Jesus commanded his followers to do.

This begs the question I asked, then who. Now you say no one. This goes back to your implication that Jesus told his supporters to buy a sword for no application.

Jesus told his followers to buy swords for a purpose. There is no implication that he didn’t.

You affirm in theory but deny in practice.

Theres a time to kill - except in practice.

I’ve already corrected you on this.

 

[Matthias]

We’re talking about the reasons FOR the Crusades.

We’re talking about all kinds of things. For instance, you brought up King Saul. If you‘re only going to talk about reasons for the Crusades - reasons which have been stated and restated by many in this thread, including me - then what is your purpose for dredging up Saul? He wasn’t a crusader.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest followers of Jesus didn’t do what you you say Jesus commanded his followers to do.

LOL.

 

[Wrangler]

We’re talking about all kinds of things. For instance, you brought up King Saul. If you‘re only going to talk about reasons for the Crusades - reasons which have been stated and restated by many in this thread, including me - then what is your purpose for dredging up Saul? He wasn’t a crusader.

/pause vitriol
Listen, I know we disagree on the Crusades and the impotence of over-spiritualization. But I don’t think I mentioned King Saul.

I did recently refer to Paul saying if you don’t work, you don’t eat.

/continue vitriol

 

[Wrangler]

I understand that you lack enough information to make that judgment in your initial statement.

Did you watch the Dr Bill Warner vid on Jihad v Crudades?

 

[Matthias]

LOL.

No one is laughing but you.

 

[Matthias]

/pause vitriol
Listen, I know we disagree on the Crusades and the impotence of over-spiritualization. But I don’t think I mentioned King Saul.

I did recently refer to Paul saying if you don’t work, you don’t eat.

/continue vitriol

You directed my attention (post #923; #948) to 1 Samuel 15:3. King Saul is there. Right?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’m free to choose. Why do you keep overlooking that verse, where there is freedom, there is the Spirit of the Lord?

Yes.....and God gives all of us freedom of choice....but as it was in the garden of Eden, the humans were free to choose, but their choices had consequences.....their freedom was not absolute, it had limits, in that they also chose the consequence, along with that freedom.

You use Scripture in such a twisted way to justify what you want to believe.....misapplied Scripture justifies nothing. It only placates a mind that is set to do evil, regardless of what anyone says.....if we are doing what Jesus plainly told us not to do, then we are on the opposing side to Jesus....all opposers will be eliminated.

There is only God’s side and the devil’s side.....and there is only one winner......we choose which side we are on by our actions, or in the case of war, by our inaction......not just our empty words.

 

[JustMe]

Did you watch the Dr Bill Warner vid on Jihad v Crudades?

I’m not especially interested in Dr. Bill Warner, the well-known warmonger, as a reliable source. However, he does manage to persuade a gullible Western audience quite effectively.

I believe he sees the Crusades as purely defensive wars, responding to the 7th-century Muslim/Islamic jihadist campaigns around the Mediterranean, aimed at rescuing Christians from their conquerors in Southern Europe.

That seems plausible until you really think about what he’s promoting, which is hard to accept. For one, why did it take 400 years to start a defensive war as a reaction? Such a delayed response would have lost momentum long before then. There was clearly another motive, one involving offensive, aggressive wars rather than defensive ones by the Crusaders.

Secondly, why were the main so-called defensive wars fought over several centuries focused around the eastern Mediterranean—Turkey, Lebanon, Palestine, and Egypt? If Christians had been imprisoned or living there for generations, you would expect many Christians in those areas, but there weren’t.

Also, why were hardly (next to none) any battles fought in the actual regions where Christians lived in the 11th century and later, in Southern Europe coastal areas especially, and because these were still Muslim/Islam strongholds? He never addresses or acknowledges this.

This misleading doctor also tries to convince people that the same zeal for bloodshed that drove around 500 Muslim holy offensive jihad wars is still alive today, suggesting that Muslims are ready to wage hundreds of wars across Europe.

I wouldn’t pay attention to this person unless you’re a lifelong member of his following.

 

[walter]

..

You have some good ideas. Just a suggestion something I've tried for myself,
Or we could go over one scripture at a time whatever you choose.

I list all the words that Jesus says relevant to a subject I am studying,

I ask myself after reading all relevant words by Jesus, what is Jesus trying to explain most of the time?

I ask myself, is what I believe to be true only supported by the minority of Jesus words?
If so, is it possible this minority is figurative language or possibly a metaphor?

 

[Wrangler]

@Matthias, @Aunty Jane, your world view is nihilistic, saying what the Crusaders did is NOT right. How do you defend your INACTION as millions of Christians over the centuries were murdered, raped, enslaved and conquered by Islamic Jihad?

What does justice look like in your world view?

 

[Wrangler]

I’m not especially interested in Dr. Bill Warner, the well-known warmonger, as a reliable source.

Facts are facts, no matter who is presenting them. Disregarding them explains your world view.

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias, @Aunty Jane, your world view is nihilistic, saying what the Crusaders did is NOT right. How do you defend your INACTION as millions of Christians over the centuries were murdered, raped, enslaved and conquered by Islamic Jihad?

What does justice look like in your world view?

I’m waiting for you to respond to my post #950 and my post #967, Herr Doktor.

 

[JustMe]

Facts are facts, no matter who is presenting them. Disregarding them explains your world view.

And you will simply accept his presented facts as true without further scrutiny? His facts are intentionally framed relative to other conditions and his own undisclosed context, which he refuses to reveal. He does not possess absolute or nearly absolute facts. In other words, his facts cannot be trusted, and one must carefully analyze and interpret what he truly means.

He will not include in his argument that the Crusaders struck their main two dozen or so targets on the Eastern shore of the Sea multiple times. Moreover, certain Islamic war zones were also targeted repeatedly.

To compare both sides fairly, as apples to apples, the Islamic wars in over 500 locations, as he claims, actually occurred in about 200 general areas with a radius of about 20 miles or less. He counts skirmishes spanning a few miles as separate locations to inflate the number for dramatic effect. He deliberately places these locations less than 30 miles apart in many regions to multiply the count by at least five times.

On the other hand, applying his same method of counting for the Crusaders, considering their war zones only a few miles apart and the number of repeated visits, the number would not be just 12 to 20 war sites but closer to at least 100.

Ultimately, what does it truly matter? Both sides caused significant deaths and turmoil in the countries they invaded. Warfare today has changed dramatically; it has become more globally systematized, with a small group beyond the UN’s reach controlling decisions. This represents another major shift and consequence in the warfare shaped by fallen and corrupt human nature.

 

[Wrangler]

And you will simply accept his presented facts as true without further scrutiny?

For some reason, you are determined to make this personal. The topic is the reasons FOR the Crusades.

 

[Wrangler]

I’m waiting for you to respond to my post #950 and my post #967, Herr Doktor.

This just shows again that you are not a serious person, not answering my posts #750, 801, 843 among many others.

950

How many “men and women, children and infants” have you put to death? Out of that number, how many of them were followers of Jesus?

My response is the same as many of my responses. You keep moving the goalposts. Your first false claim is that Scripture does not command us to kill. Rather than humbly accept you were wrong, you try to make it personal.

#967

You directed my attention (post #923; #948) to 1 Samuel 15:3. King Saul is there. Right?

No. 1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’

And I never brought up King Saul. If you want to make the claim that I brought him up referring to a book that brings him up, that again shows what an unserious person you are.

Nevermind. I've given you enough chances, shown you enough grace in having a serious conversation about this important topic. I'll just add you to my ignore list and be happier for it. Have a good day. Bye. Bye.

 

[Matthias]

I'll just add you to my ignore list and be happier for it. Have a good day. Bye. Bye.

I suggested that to you some time ago. Be a man of your word.

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias … your world view is nihilistic

Readers, do not marvel at this. When a person who will kill the brothers and sisters of the Messiah in war accuses a pastor of being nihilistic - for any reason - that’s an attack of the devil on the pastor.

Having put on the armor of God, his accusations don’t harm me; they harm the man whom he used to make them. Please pray for Wrangler.

… saying what the Crusaders did is NOT right.

What the crusaders did is a matter of historical record, readers. You should become educated about the evil they did (they did everything the Muslims did) and remember what scripture says about calling evil good and good evil.

 

[Matthias]

”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill“ is a doctrine of demons.

Listen to, believe, and obey the doctrine of Jesus and the apostles. Don’t kill your enemies. Preach Jesus to them.

 

[Matthias]

The faithful shepherd of the Messiah’s sheep doesn’t kill the sheep. There is no argument the devil can put forward that would ever persuade me otherwise.