Daniel 7 - 10 horns....

[JLB]

The first coming of the Messiah, when the Stone strikes the feet.

The second coming, when the entire statue is ground to dust and swept away like chaff in the wind.

‘When Jesus returns He will strike the image on the 10 toes, which is the 10 kings who rule in the end.

These kingdoms and kings must first be in place (which hasn’t happened yet) for the stone to strike them.


Also the high ranking powers of darkness that have ruled behind the scenes from the heavenly places will rule as the 10 kings, when Satan and his angels are cast down to the earth.

Remember what Daniel taught us about the prince of Persia.


And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:7-9

Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. Revelation 12:13



These 10 kings will a mixture that has mingled with the seed of man.


As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. Daniel 2:43


They is a “they” a person, but not the seed of men; human


This speaks of genetic manipulation, which is exactly what was taking place in the days of Noah.


But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 24:37

 

[CTK]

Pardon the interruption of the discussion between yourself and TS. It's been very informative. I hope you won't mind me asking you one question, When you say the plan of the Messiah was to "restore His people and His city back to the way it was prior to the Babylonian destruction" do you believe the restoration would be a physical/material restoration, or do you believe the restoration of His people through the Messiah would be spiritually fulfilled through the coming Kingdom of God the Messiah would usher in?

What a terrific question and please feel free to ask more questions or offer your thoughts on Daniel. Her3 is a carve out from the commentary on Daniel for chapter 9...

 

[CTK]

Pardon the interruption of the discussion between yourself and TS. It's been very informative. I hope you won't mind me asking you one question, When you say the plan of the Messiah was to "restore His people and His city back to the way it was prior to the Babylonian destruction" do you believe the restoration would be a physical/material restoration, or do you believe the restoration of His people through the Messiah would be spiritually fulfilled through the coming Kingdom of God the Messiah would usher in?

What a terrific question and please feel free to ask more questions or offer your thoughts on Daniel. Her3 is a carve out from the commentary on Daniel for chapter 9...


Part 1

Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks…​

Gabriel’s message to Daniel delivers one of the most remarkable timelines in all of Scripture—a countdown to the arrival of the Messiah. According to the prophecy, the Anointed One would come at the end of sixty-nine weeks of years, or 483 years, following the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This prophecy is unmistakably about the Messiah, and it unfolds with both promise and solemnity: restoration would come, but so would judgment. Just as the statue in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 represent continuous timelines through successive kingdoms, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 follow an unbroken, divinely ordered sequence. They’re divided into three distinct parts:

Seven weeks (49 years) – marking the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s streets and walls from 457 BC to 408 BC.​

Sixty-two weeks (434 years) – a long, quiet stretch from 408 BC to 27 AD, leading straight to the Messiah.​

One final week (7 years) – during which the Messiah would confirm the covenant and be “cut off” in the middle of it.​

There is no gap or pause in this timeline. Daniel 9:24 makes clear that all seventy weeks are “for your people and your holy city,” binding the prophecy tightly to Israel and Jerusalem. While some interpretations suggest a pause between the 69th and 70th weeks—placing the final seven years far into the future—this breaks the consistent pattern of God’s prophetic design. Nowhere else does God interrupt His time-ordained plans with thousands of years of delay. In verse 25b, Gabriel provides two interpretive anchors:

The first seven weeks encompass the physical restoration of Jerusalem—its walls and streets rebuilt in troubling times.​

​

The following sixty-two weeks pass without specific detail, leading seamlessly to the arrival of the Messiah in 27 AD—at the very start of the 70th week.​

Though that middle period remains silent, its silence is meaningful. It reinforces the unity of the timeline: just as the kingdoms in Daniel’s earlier visions moved without interruption, so do the seventy weeks. The entire prophecy functions as one continuous movement toward redemption. The real focus, however, is not just on buildings or calendars—but on the restoration of God’s presence among His people. The Temple, its walls, and the Levitical system would indeed be rebuilt. But one thing was missing: the Ark of the Covenant. Hidden by Jeremiah before Babylon’s siege, the Ark was never recovered. And that was no accident. Its absence symbolized that only the Messiah could restore what was truly lost—God’s presence dwelling among His people. That restoration began when Jesus was baptized in 27 AD. As the heavens opened and the Spirit descended, God returned—not to a stone sanctuary, but in the person of His Son. The Ark had always symbolized God with His people. Now, in Christ, that reality was fulfilled. This is why the final week of the seventy must remain where it belongs: at the culmination of the 483-year countdown. To remove it from its appointed place is to break the very framework that points to Jesus and His mission.

Unlike the earlier seven weeks, which focused on physical rebuilding, the final week is filled with spiritual significance and eternal consequence. Within this final stretch:

Jesus fulfills all six objectives listed in Daniel 9:24—dealing with sin, righteousness, vision, and anointing.​

He brings an end to sacrifices—His death rendering the old system obsolete (Hebrews 10:10–14).​

He confirms the covenant—not through rituals, but through His blood, establishing a new and living way.​

The Temple and the city are destroyed—just as foretold, this judgment comes in 70 AD.​

Those who reject Him are left in spiritual desolation—cut off from the Presence until the appointed time of restoration.​

To cast this prophecy into some distant future—awaiting an antichrist or a rebuilt temple—misses the heart of Daniel 9. This isn’t a prophecy about what might happen someday.

It’s a declaration of what already happened—of the Messiah who came, who suffered, and who restored everything that had been lost. Every part of this prophecy points to Him:

The seven weeks prepared the city.​

The sixty-two weeks prepared the people.​

The final week revealed the Savior.​

And through Him, the new Temple was born—not of stone, but of Spirit. Not on earth, but from heaven. Not temporary, but eternal. The prophecy of Daniel 9 is not about delay. It’s about fulfillment. And the fulfillment is Jesus Christ.

 

[CTK]

Pardon the interruption of the discussion between yourself and TS. It's been very informative. I hope you won't mind me asking you one question, When you say the plan of the Messiah was to "restore His people and His city back to the way it was prior to the Babylonian destruction" do you believe the restoration would be a physical/material restoration, or do you believe the restoration of His people through the Messiah would be spiritually fulfilled through the coming Kingdom of God the Messiah would usher in?

Part 2

Reflective narrative:​

The Quiet Runway of the Sixty-Two Weeks”​

In the seventy-weeks prophecy of Daniel 9, there is something quietly striking about the way God divides time. We are given three distinct segments: seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one final week. The first and last are packed with meaning—rebuilding, Messiah, covenant, sacrifice. But the longest stretch, the sixty-two weeks, passes by in a single breath: “until Messiah the Prince.” It’s as if God draws a long line of 434 years and writes over it only one thing: wait here for the Messiah.

At first glance, that silence feels odd. Why say so little about the largest block of time? But when we step back and consider the purpose of Daniel 9, the pattern becomes clearer. This chapter is not a general history lesson. God is not starting from scratch to retell the rise and fall of empires. He has already begun that work in Daniel 2, showing four kingdoms as layers of metal; in Daniel 7, showing them again as beasts; and in Daniel 8, zooming in on Medo-Persia, Greece, and the little horn. Those visions trace the shape and character of the Gentile powers. Daniel 9 does something different. Here, God is not focused on which kingdoms will rise, or how they will behave. He is focused on when the Messiah will come, and what He will accomplish. That is why verse 25 ties the first two segments together with such deliberate simplicity:

“From the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.”​

In other words, the seven and the sixty-two are treated as one long runway. There is a starting point—the decree to restore and rebuild. There is an endpoint—Messiah the Prince. The sixty-two weeks do not carry the main theological weight of the prophecy; they carry the clock. The Spirit does not pause to fill them with details, because the purpose here is not to catalogue every king, war, and border shift. The purpose is to tell God’s people, with precision and mercy, when the Anointed One will stand in their midst.

That does not mean the 434 years in the middle are empty or unimportant. It means that their story lives under a different spotlight. The empires that rise and fall across those centuries—Persian strength, Greek brilliance, and eventually Roman dominion—have already been sketched in Daniel’s earlier visions. The “content” of the sixty-two weeks is scattered in those earlier chapters. In Daniel 9, God repurposes the camera. He is no longer drawing beasts and metals; He is drawing a timeline that runs straight to Christ.

But if the text of Daniel 9 passes quickly over those years, history and Scripture still allow us to see what God is doing within them. Far from being a dead zone, the sixty-two weeks are years of deep, quiet preparation. During that long middle stretch, Israel’s Scriptures are being preserved, copied, and taught. The Law and the Prophets are gathered and read, shaping the minds and hearts of generations. Synagogues begin to appear in city after city, in Judea and across the diaspora—simple buildings that will later become pulpits for the apostles and footholds for the Gospel. The Jewish people are scattered among the nations, often under pressure and hardship, yet carrying with them the knowledge of the one true God and the hope of His promises.

At the same time, the Gentile world is being rearranged. The Persian Empire yields to the swift conquests of Greece. Greek language and culture spread across vast territories, laying down a common tongue that will eventually carry the New Testament and the preaching of the apostles. After Greece fractures, Rome rises—hard, administrative, methodical. Roman roads knit regions together. Roman law creates a kind of rough order in which travel and communication become possible on a scale never seen before.

Daniel 9 does not list any of this. It simply draws that long line of sixty-two weeks and says, “until Messiah the Prince.” But in that line, God is quietly preparing a world where a single crucified Jew, ministering for just a few years in a small corner of the empire, can have His story told from Jerusalem to Rome, from synagogues to marketplaces, in a language millions can understand. The prophecy is silent; God is not. He is moving empires like furniture, placing roads like arteries, scattering Israel like seed, so that when the last week comes, the field is ready for the harvest.

The structure of the prophecy itself reinforces this. The first seven weeks are linked to the rebuilding of the city and sanctuary—the physical restoration of Jerusalem after exile. The last week is where all the spiritual goals of verse 24 converge: finishing transgression, making an end of sins, making reconciliation for iniquity, bringing in everlasting righteousness, sealing up vision and prophecy, and anointing the most holy. All of that comes to focus in the final seven years of the timeline, particularly in the middle of that week, when the Messiah is “cut off,” and His once-for-all sacrifice brings the old sacrificial system to its God-ordained end.

The sixty-two weeks in the middle are the long hallway between those two doorways. They are not where the covenant surgery is performed; they are where God walks history steadily toward the operating room. Their role is real but supporting: to carry Israel and the nations forward until, right on schedule, Messiah appears and does in a brief span of time what no empire, no ritual, and no human effort could ever do. Seen this way, the “silence” over the 434 years is not neglect; it is focus. God is content, in this chapter, to leave the intermediate years largely unnamed because the central thing He wants Daniel—and us—to see is not every curve in the road, but the destination at the end of it. The decree will go forth. The city will be rebuilt. Many regimes will rise and fall. But at the appointed time, after seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, Messiah the Prince will come.

There is also a softer, devotional lesson hidden in that structure. We tend to look for God in the loud moments: the decree, the restoration, the cross, the outpouring of the Spirit. But Daniel 9 reminds us that God is just as active in the long, seemingly quiet stretches. The sixty-two weeks are a testimony that God does not only work in miracles and crises; He works in centuries, in patient preparation, in the slow shaping of culture, language, and expectation. He does not waste the in-between. So when we read the seventy weeks and notice how quickly the largest segment passes by, we are not meant to conclude that God lost interest in those years.

We are meant to see that, for the purposes of this prophecy, He wants our eyes on something else: on the faithfulness of His timing and the certainty of His Son. The longest block of time becomes the quiet runway on which God’s plan rolls forward until, at last, the final week begins and the Anointed One steps into view, confirming the covenant and accomplishing the work that all the previous centuries were quietly preparing for.

 

[rwb]

There is no gap or pause in this timeline. Daniel 9:24 makes clear that all seventy weeks are “for your people and your holy city,” binding the prophecy tightly to Israel and Jerusalem.

You haven't really answered my question, so I'll focus on vs 1. Gabriel tells Daniel: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you believe "thy people" of Daniel are Jews in unbelief, or Jews and later Gentiles also of faith? Was Messiah coming that He might restore an ethnic or a spiritual people, when He shall finish transgression, make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness?

I do agree that all that is written by Daniel shall be finished within the seventy weeks or 490 years.

 

[David in NJ]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

10 toes come AFTER pagan Rome and are still part of pagan Rome

 

[CTK]

You haven't really answered my question, so I'll focus on vs 1. Gabriel tells Daniel: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you believe "thy people" of Daniel are Jews in unbelief, or Jews and later Gentiles also of faith? Was Messiah coming that He might restore an ethnic or a spiritual people, when He shall finish transgression, make an end of sins, make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness?

I do agree that all that is written by Daniel shall be finished within the seventy weeks or 490 years.

Sorry, I thought that did answer your question, but in any case, this verse is specifically given to Daniel from Gabriel.

It is for “thy people and thy holy city,” meaning it is speaking to those Jews who are returning from Babylon, to their city, and it defines the time prophecy for restoring everything that was either destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians.

Further, there is nothing in the prophecy that was not fulfilled.

 

[CTK]

10 toes come AFTER pagan Rome and are still part of pagan Rome

I don’t think so. I believe 7:7 tells us the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast…. Then, a little horn follows.

The 10 toes are part of the metal man statue sitting where they are supposed to be - and the end of the feet.

In chapter 2:41, Gabriel talks about the 10 toes, their composition…

What causes the 10 toes to be identified as 10 horns (powers) is the “striking of the feet by the stone” in verse 2:34.

That is, Jesus, the Stone will symbolically strike the feet (not the toes) and this will cause a separation of the clay (Jewish people held captive within the iron kingdom of pagan Rome). The 10 toes represent God’s 10 commandments given to them 1500 years earlier and entrusted to them. When they rejected and crucified their Messiah this would cause a division among His people. Those who accepted Him as their Messiah would be identified as “Pottery clay.” While those who rejected Him would be identified as “ceramic or miry clay.”

So, the Pottery clay would go out into the Roman Empire and preach the Good News to the Gentiles after the Cross. They would become the Jewish Christian church in the first century and take the 10 commandments of God (toes) to them. And this is why we see in Daniel 7 that they will “come out” of the 4th beast (pagan Rome) after the cross and also why God now refers to them as “horns” (powers) because they will indeed transform lives, etc.

And all of this began right after the cross and continued even through the next 300 years of intense persecution by pagan Rome.

Then in the early 300’s Constantine made Christianity legal and the persecution stopped. A little later Christianity became the official religion of pagan Rome .

But in 476 AD, pagan Rome would see its fall and would be replaced by papal Rome.

So the toes have been with the Jewish nation for 1500 years by the time of the cross. Then, the early Jewish Christians would take them to the entire Gentile world (identified as horns).

However, when the little horn (papacy) came to full power and would reign over all religious and civil matters, God would now refer to them, no longer as “horns” but “kings” (7:24), because the little horn would use them as a sword to control people and force them to obey their 10 commandments (which were / are not the same as those found in the Torah). So, like any king, they must be obeyed - and the RCC would wield that sword indeed.

That is the “timing” and the reasons for the changing of the identity of the 10 commandments as they transition from the Jewish nation before the cross, through pagan Rome and then when they ate in the hands of papal Rome.

 

[David in NJ]

I don’t think so. I believe 7:7 tells us the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast…. Then, a little horn follows.

The 10 toes are part of the metal man statue sitting where they are supposed to be - and the end of the feet.

In chapter 2:41, Gabriel talks about the 10 toes, their composition…

What causes the 10 toes to be identified as 10 horns (powers) is the “striking of the feet by the stone” in verse 2:34.

That is, Jesus, the Stone will symbolically strike the feet (not the toes) and this will cause a separation of the clay (Jewish people held captive within the iron kingdom of pagan Rome). The 10 toes represent God’s 10 commandments given to them 1500 years earlier and entrusted to them. When they rejected and crucified their Messiah this would cause a division among His people. Those who accepted Him as their Messiah would be identified as “Pottery clay.” While those who rejected Him would be identified as “ceramic or miry clay.”

So, the Pottery clay would go out into the Roman Empire and preach the Good News to the Gentiles after the Cross. They would become the Jewish Christian church in the first century and take the 10 commandments of God (toes) to them. And this is why we see in Daniel 7 that they will “come out” of the 4th beast (pagan Rome) after the cross and also why God now refers to them as “horns” (powers) because they will indeed transform lives, etc.

And all of this began right after the cross and continued even through the next 300 years of intense persecution by pagan Rome.

Then in the early 300’s Constantine made Christianity legal and the persecution stopped. A little later Christianity became the official religion of pagan Rome .

But in 476 AD, pagan Rome would see its fall and would be replaced by papal Rome.

So the toes have been with the Jewish nation for 1500 years by the time of the cross. Then, the early Jewish Christians would take them to the entire Gentile world (identified as horns).

However, when the little horn (papacy) came to full power and would reign over all religious and civil matters, God would now refer to them, no longer as “horns” but “kings” (7:24), because the little horn would use them as a sword to control people and force them to obey their 10 commandments (which were / are not the same as those found in the Torah). So, like any king, they must be obeyed - and the RCC would wield that sword indeed.

That is the “timing” and the reasons for the changing of the identity of the 10 commandments as they transition from the Jewish nation before the cross, through pagan Rome and then when they ate in the hands of papal Rome.

The ten toes are ten kings - they are not the 10 commandments

Legs of Iron = Roman Empire

Feet of Iron mixed with Clay = Continued Roman Rule now with Humanism

The Rock strikes at the feet/10 Kings = this signifies the Time of His Second Coming

 

[CTK]

The ten toes are ten kings - they are not the 10 commandments

Legs of Iron = Roman Empire

Feet of Iron mixed with Clay = Continued Roman Rule now with Humanism

The Rock strikes at the feet/10 Kings = this signifies the Time of His Second Coming

Perhaps you might want to tell the story from chapter 2 to chapter 11 -- not just 4 comments... what are the 10 toes within the feet, why do they come out of pagan Rome in chapter 7, why are they referred to by a different symbol, share exactly when the 10 horns come out of pagan Rome, i hope you can put all of the verses in Daniel together to paint a unified, consistent picture of what God is revealing to us. Each verse that is given us is for a reason and they do not stand alone.... there is nothing in your 4 short comments that mean anything ... Daniel is an extremely difficult book to unpack.... perhaps you can explain verses 41- 44 to me.... they are very detailed....

 

[rwb]

Sorry, I thought that did answer your question, but in any case, this verse is specifically given to Daniel from Gabriel.

It is for “thy people and thy holy city,” meaning it is speaking to those Jews who are returning from Babylon, to their city, and it defines the time prophecy for restoring everything that was either destroyed or taken away by the Babylonians.

Further, there is nothing in the prophecy that was not fulfilled.

Can you explain how this logically fits historically if "thy people" speaks of Daniel's unbelieving kinsmen according to the flesh? It makes no sense for God to send Daniel a message that He knows will not be true. Because the city and temple Daniel's biological people will rebuild along with Daniel's unsaved kinsmen according to the flesh are destined to utterly perish! It seems the message Gabriel is giving Daniel is more of a warning of their impending destruction when they fail to accept Messiah the Prince ordained to come? Why would God tell His "greatly beloved" Daniel that His biological kinsmen who remain in unbelief would be restored as they were before then when the Messiah came say to them "behold, your house is left unto you desolate"?

Yes, I agree everything Daniel foretells was fulfilled within the 490 years when, Christ the Mesiah Prince came.

In alignment with what historically happened it only makes sense if "thy people" of Daniel were his kinsmen of FAITH, and when Messiah the Prince came, would also include Gentiles of FAITH also. Unless we reason through the fact that when Christ, the Messiah came He came not to rebuild materially, but to build something altogether new through spiritually building the Kingdom of God as the gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. Not a Kingdom as of Old, but a Kingdom that is NOT of this world because His Kingdom then will only be found within you when one is born again! IOW the Kingdom of God through Messiah, the Prince would be a spiritual Kingdom, not an earthly, physical kingdom as it was before.

 

[CTK]

Can you explain how this logically fits historically if "thy people" speaks of Daniel's unbelieving kinsmen according to the flesh? It makes no sense for God to send Daniel a message that He knows will not be true. Because the city and temple Daniel's biological people will rebuild along with Daniel's unsaved kinsmen according to the flesh are destined to utterly perish! It seems the message Gabriel is giving Daniel is more of a warning of their impending destruction when they fail to accept Messiah the Prince ordained to come? Why would God tell His "greatly beloved" Daniel that His biological kinsmen who remain in unbelief would be restored as they were before then when the Messiah came say to them "behold, your house is left unto you desolate"?

Yes, I agree everything Daniel foretells was fulfilled within the 490 years when, Christ the Mesiah Prince came.

In alignment with what historically happened it only makes sense if "thy people" of Daniel were his kinsmen of FAITH, and when Messiah the Prince came, would also include Gentiles of FAITH also. Unless we reason through the fact that when Christ, the Messiah came He came not to rebuild materially, but to build something altogether new through spiritually building the Kingdom of God as the gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. Not a Kingdom as of Old, but a Kingdom that is NOT of this world because His Kingdom then will only be found within you when one is born again! IOW the Kingdom of God through Messiah, the Prince would be a spiritual Kingdom, not an earthly, physical kingdom as it was before.

“Thanks—this helps me understand where you’re coming from. I agree the seventy weeks reach their goal in Messiah and that His kingdom is not of this world. Where I read Daniel 9 a bit differently is with two horizons held together by God’s larger plan.
First, ‘your people and your holy city’ naturally points, in the historical context, to the post-exile return and the concrete rebuilding of people, city, sanctuary, streets, and walls (Ezra–Nehemiah). That really did happen within the timetable—and it wasn’t a detour. It was the next step in God’s restoration plan, preparing the stage in Jerusalem for the arrival of Messiah the Prince right on time.
Second, that near restoration was never the finish line. God’s plan of restoration and salvation always aimed beyond bricks and gates—to the Messiah’s work and a people defined by faith. Scripture itself shows that God foreknew the Messiah would be rejected by many (e.g., the Servant songs; Jesus’ own laments) and even wove that rejection into the atoning purpose that saves Jew and Gentile. So nothing God told Daniel fails: the city is restored on schedule; the Messiah arrives on schedule; and the covenant people, from that point on, are gathered around Him—first the believing remnant of Israel, then Gentiles grafted in—forming the temple where God dwells by His Spirit.
So I keep both: (1) a real, historical fulfillment for Daniel’s people returning from Babylon, fully within God’s redemptive plan; and (2) the climactic, spiritual fulfillment in Messiah, where ‘His people’ are defined by faith and His kingdom takes root in human hearts. Read that way, the near and the ultimate fulfillments line up without anything falling to the ground—even the tragic rejection is foreseen and used by God to accomplish the larger salvation He promised from the beginning.”

 

[rwb]

“Thanks—this helps me understand where you’re coming from. I agree the seventy weeks reach their goal in Messiah and that His kingdom is not of this world. Where I read Daniel 9 a bit differently is with two horizons held together by God’s larger plan.
First, ‘your people and your holy city’ naturally points, in the historical context, to the post-exile return and the concrete rebuilding of people, city, sanctuary, streets, and walls (Ezra–Nehemiah). That really did happen within the timetable—and it wasn’t a detour. It was the next step in God’s restoration plan, preparing the stage in Jerusalem for the arrival of Messiah the Prince right on time.
Second, that near restoration was never the finish line. God’s plan of restoration and salvation always aimed beyond bricks and gates—to the Messiah’s work and a people defined by faith. Scripture itself shows that God foreknew the Messiah would be rejected by many (e.g., the Servant songs; Jesus’ own laments) and even wove that rejection into the atoning purpose that saves Jew and Gentile. So nothing God told Daniel fails: the city is restored on schedule; the Messiah arrives on schedule; and the covenant people, from that point on, are gathered around Him—first the believing remnant of Israel, then Gentiles grafted in—forming the temple where God dwells by His Spirit.
So I keep both: (1) a real, historical fulfillment for Daniel’s people returning from Babylon, fully within God’s redemptive plan; and (2) the climactic, spiritual fulfillment in Messiah, where ‘His people’ are defined by faith and His kingdom takes root in human hearts. Read that way, the near and the ultimate fulfillments line up without anything falling to the ground—even the tragic rejection is foreseen and used by God to accomplish the larger salvation He promised from the beginning.”

I agree the city and temple destroyed in the captivity were rebuilt exactly as Daniel prophesies and would be inhabited by Jewish Israel (Daniel's people, also called the 'remnant') who chose to return after the 70 years of captivity. But that does not prove "thy people" referred to Jews in unbelief. You see, I don't believe the plan of God was ever meant to be a restoration plan for unbelieving Jewish Israel. The plan of God to redeem a people for Himself has never been to restore unfaithful Israel according to the flesh. The plan of God from the beginning of creation was that Christ would save Israel of faith, and they would be both Jew and Gentile believers together.

It seems your POV concerning the prophetic words of Daniel might be informed through dispensational doctrine. Do you believe "all Israel that shall be saved" is ethnic Israel according to the flesh?

The theme "the remnant" runs throughout the writings of the prophets of Old and Paul quoting the prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 1:7-9 (KJV) Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isaiah 10:20-22 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Ezekiel 14:22 (KJV) Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

Micah 5:3 (KJV) Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Romans 9:27 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

 

[CTK]

I agree the city and temple destroyed in the captivity were rebuilt exactly as Daniel prophesies and would be inhabited by Jewish Israel (Daniel's people, also called the 'remnant') who chose to return after the 70 years of captivity. But that does not prove "thy people" referred to Jews in unbelief. You see, I don't believe the plan of God was ever meant to be a restoration plan for unbelieving Jewish Israel. The plan of God to redeem a people for Himself has never been to restore unfaithful Israel according to the flesh. The plan of God from the beginning of creation was that Christ would save Israel of faith, and they would be both Jew and Gentile believers together.

It seems your POV concerning the prophetic words of Daniel might be informed through dispensational doctrine. Do you believe "all Israel that shall be saved" is ethnic Israel according to the flesh?

The theme "the remnant" runs throughout the writings of the prophets of Old and Paul quoting the prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 1:7-9 (KJV) Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isaiah 10:20-22 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Ezekiel 14:22 (KJV) Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

Micah 5:3 (KJV) Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Romans 9:27 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Thanks for laying that out—I’m with you that the remnant theme is everywhere from Isaiah to Paul. Where I think we’re close but not identical is on how Daniel 9 uses the phrase “your people and your holy city.”
In the near horizon, the plain-sense referent of “your people” to Daniel in exile is Israel-as-a-nation returning from Babylon, and “your city” is Jerusalem—with streets, walls, and sanctuary explicitly in view (Dan 9:25–27; cf. Ezra–Nehemiah). That return wasn’t a reward for unbelief; it was God’s stage-setting for the Messiah to arrive on time. Scripture regularly shows God restoring structures through a mixed Israel (faithful and unfaithful present together), while His saving fellowship is always with the remnant. So I’m not saying “unbelief is restored”; I’m saying the city and temple were restored on schedule to serve the larger saving plan.
In the climactic horizon, I agree entirely: the people who finally belong to God are the people of faith—first the believing remnant of Israel and then the Gentiles grafted in (Rom 11). The rejection of many in Israel was foreknown and even woven into the plan that brings mercy to the nations (Isa 53; Luke 2:34–35; Rom 11:11–12). So nothing God told Daniel fails: the national return happened; the Messiah came; and from that point the covenant people are defined around faith in Him.
On the “dispensational” question: my reading isn’t trying to build a system; it’s just keeping the two horizons Daniel himself gives—concrete post-exile restoration and the Messiah’s arrival—and then letting the NT explain how the promise widens to Jew and Gentile in Christ.
On “all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26): I don’t take that as every ethnic Israelite of all time, nor as “the Church replaces Israel.” I read it as the corporate fullness of Israel—when God lifts the hardening, a large, identifiable turning of Jewish people to the Messiah joins the continuing remnant, and so “all Israel” (Israel-as-Israel) is saved—in Christ, not apart from Him. That fits the remnant texts you cited and Paul’s own flow (Rom 11:12, 15, 25–29).
So: yes to the remnant; yes to one people of God by faith; and also yes to Daniel’s national, historical return as part of the way God got the world ready for the on-time Messiah.

 

[rwb]

Thanks for laying that out—I’m with you that the remnant theme is everywhere from Isaiah to Paul. Where I think we’re close but not identical is on how Daniel 9 uses the phrase “your people and your holy city.”
In the near horizon, the plain-sense referent of “your people” to Daniel in exile is Israel-as-a-nation returning from Babylon, and “your city” is Jerusalem—with streets, walls, and sanctuary explicitly in view (Dan 9:25–27; cf. Ezra–Nehemiah). That return wasn’t a reward for unbelief; it was God’s stage-setting for the Messiah to arrive on time. Scripture regularly shows God restoring structures through a mixed Israel (faithful and unfaithful present together), while His saving fellowship is always with the remnant. So I’m not saying “unbelief is restored”; I’m saying the city and temple were restored on schedule to serve the larger saving plan.
In the climactic horizon, I agree entirely: the people who finally belong to God are the people of faith—first the believing remnant of Israel and then the Gentiles grafted in (Rom 11). The rejection of many in Israel was foreknown and even woven into the plan that brings mercy to the nations (Isa 53; Luke 2:34–35; Rom 11:11–12). So nothing God told Daniel fails: the national return happened; the Messiah came; and from that point the covenant people are defined around faith in Him.
On the “dispensational” question: my reading isn’t trying to build a system; it’s just keeping the two horizons Daniel himself gives—concrete post-exile restoration and the Messiah’s arrival—and then letting the NT explain how the promise widens to Jew and Gentile in Christ.
On “all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26): I don’t take that as every ethnic Israelite of all time, nor as “the Church replaces Israel.” I read it as the corporate fullness of Israel—when God lifts the hardening, a large, identifiable turning of Jewish people to the Messiah joins the continuing remnant, and so “all Israel” (Israel-as-Israel) is saved—in Christ, not apart from Him. That fits the remnant texts you cited and Paul’s own flow (Rom 11:12, 15, 25–29).
So: yes to the remnant; yes to one people of God by faith; and also yes to Daniel’s national, historical return as part of the way God got the world ready for the on-time Messiah.

Charlie, I will agree that God permitted the rebuilding of the city and temple of Old after the captivity because that would be where the coming Messiah would make Himself physically known unto His people, who are thy people of faith like that of Daniel, who were the biological offspring of Abraham, the remnant of them who are eternally saved.

Yes, the rejection of the Messiah by all but a remnant of Old, was the catalyst for proclaiming the gospel unto Gentiles throughout the world. But Gentiles of faith made up part of the remnant saved by grace through faith even from Old. The Covenant people of God have always been defined by faith in Christ, the Messiah who was to come whether Jew or Gentiles like Noah, Abraham and from all of Old who believed God even before the nation of Israel was born. The remnant of Old by grace through faith believed God and the prophets who spoke of the Messiah who would come and save them, in the same way Jews and Gentiles alike are saved by grace through faith since Christ, the Messiah has come. It isn't the material presence of Jesus that brings people to faith in Him. It is by grace through faith that we are saved both before and after the cross.

John 20:29 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

There is no promise for a corporate restoration yet again for Israel of the flesh. You said, " I read it as the corporate fullness of Israel—when God lifts the hardening, a large, identifiable turning of Jewish people to the Messiah joins the continuing remnant, and so “all Israel” (Israel-as-Israel) is saved—in Christ, not apart from Him." Where does Scripture affirm what you've said? Paul never says the hardening of Israel shall be lifted when the last Gentile is grafted in among the faithful remnant of Israel. He writes that "all Israel shall be saved" as both the faithful remnant of Old, together with faithful Gentiles is the manner in which all Israel of faith shall be saved.

When do you believe the corporate fullness of Israel of the flesh shall be? I assume through a dispensational pov you believe the corporate fullness of Israel of the flesh shall be during a supposed time of one thousand years after Christ comes again? Which again proves I am right in believing that you try to understand the prophets of Old using a dispensational or perhaps Zionistic mind set. In doing this you mutilate the truth, and in your writings may cause many less learned Christians to stumble. Where does Daniel or any prophet speak of a national historic return for Israel of the flesh after the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord has come and departed from this earth?

 

[CTK]

Charlie, I will agree that God permitted the rebuilding of the city and temple of Old after the captivity because that would be where the coming Messiah would make Himself physically known unto His people, who are thy people of faith like that of Daniel, who were the biological offspring of Abraham, the remnant of them who are eternally saved.

Yes, the rejection of the Messiah by all but a remnant of Old, was the catalyst for proclaiming the gospel unto Gentiles throughout the world. But Gentiles of faith made up part of the remnant saved by grace through faith even from Old. The Covenant people of God have always been defined by faith in Christ, the Messiah who was to come whether Jew or Gentiles like Noah, Abraham and from all of Old who believed God even before the nation of Israel was born. The remnant of Old by grace through faith believed God and the prophets who spoke of the Messiah who would come and save them, in the same way Jews and Gentiles alike are saved by grace through faith since Christ, the Messiah has come. It isn't the material presence of Jesus that brings people to faith in Him. It is by grace through faith that we are saved both before and after the cross.

John 20:29 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

There is no promise for a corporate restoration yet again for Israel of the flesh. You said, " I read it as the corporate fullness of Israel—when God lifts the hardening, a large, identifiable turning of Jewish people to the Messiah joins the continuing remnant, and so “all Israel” (Israel-as-Israel) is saved—in Christ, not apart from Him." Where does Scripture affirm what you've said? Paul never says the hardening of Israel shall be lifted when the last Gentile is grafted in among the faithful remnant of Israel. He writes that "all Israel shall be saved" as both the faithful remnant of Old, together with faithful Gentiles is the manner in which all Israel of faith shall be saved.

When do you believe the corporate fullness of Israel of the flesh shall be? I assume through a dispensational pov you believe the corporate fullness of Israel of the flesh shall be during a supposed time of one thousand years after Christ comes again? Which again proves I am right in believing that you try to understand the prophets of Old using a dispensational or perhaps Zionistic mind set. In doing this you mutilate the truth, and in your writings may cause many less learned Christians to stumble. Where does Daniel or any prophet speak of a national historic return for Israel of the flesh after the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord has come and departed from this earth?

I agree that salvation has always been by grace through faith and that God’s true people are the remnant. Where I see Paul’s “and so all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26) is in the Revelation moment when God lifts the partial hardening and meets Israel as He met Saul—by a sovereign, Damascus-road disclosure of the Pierced One (Zech 12:10; Rom 11:25–27). Revelation pictures exactly this: a sealed Jewish remnant, numbered 144,000, set apart to carry “the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus” (Rev 7; 14). Their ministry unfolds across the same three-and-a-half-year window that keeps surfacing. That window is not random; it completes what remained when Messiah was “cut off” in the middle of the final week—at 486½ years. Everything Daniel 9:24 required was accomplished at the first coming, but the Jubilee clock—the fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle—paused at the cross with three and a half years unexpressed through Israel’s corporate witness. When the “times of the Gentiles” are fulfilled (Luke 21:24), God awakens Israel to her own Messiah so that a recognizable company from Israel proclaims Him to the nations with apostolic clarity—just as Paul did after his encounter.

This witness does not create violence; it exposes counterfeit gospels and provokes backlash from the powers that be—especially the little-horn system long claiming to define and preach their very own and very different gospel. Revelation already shows how faithful testimony draws the dragon’s rage (Rev 12:17) and the beast’s war on the saints (Rev 13:7), while Daniel foresaw a period when “the power of the holy people” is pressed to the breaking point (Dan 12:7). So the upheaval comes not because the 144,000 are violent, but because truth spoken in the open collides with deception and corruption of His true Gospel that has been with us for the past 1,500 years. It doesn’t mean every Jew without exception; Revelation’s numbering makes that plain. It does mean a visible turning that joins the ongoing remnant—what I hear in Paul’s “partial… until… and so” language tied to Jacob (Rom 11:25–27). When these verses are read together, Daniel’s near restoration after Babylon set the stage on time; Messiah arrived on time; and the final three-and-a-half years of Israel’s Spirit-empowered witness will conclude on time—bringing the Jubilee story to its completion and the King in His time. This isn’t a second people or a second salvation; it is God finishing the same salvation in the same Messiah—first through the Gentile fullness, then through a Jewish awakening He Himself initiates—until He says “enough,” brings the shattering to its end (Dan 12:7), and completes what He began.

 

[rwb]

I agree that salvation has always been by grace through faith and that God’s true people are the remnant. Where I see Paul’s “and so all Israel will be saved” (Rom 11:26) is in the Revelation moment when God lifts the partial hardening and meets Israel as He met Saul—by a sovereign, Damascus-road disclosure of the Pierced One (Zech 12:10; Rom 11:25–27).

Where does Scripture say that God will lift the blindness from Israel in unbelief?

The prophetic words of Zechariah were fulfilled when Christ sent His Spirit "of grace and supplications" on the day of Pentecost, and devout Jews from every nation under heaven heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God preached and those who heard were pricked in the heart, asking what they must do to be saved.

Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joel 2:27-32 (KJV) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:32-39 (KJV) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Paul does not say that partial blindness of Israel shall be lifted. You're reading dispensational doctrine into the text. Paul says only that partial blindness happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. He does not say the blindness in part would then be lifted. He says that all Israel shall be saved through the fullness of Gentiles who are saved with the faithful remnant of Israel. They will be saved because the Covenant is unto them when God takes away their sins. The Covenant of redemption through Christ does not come through ethnicity, rather it comes through faith. That's how we know that all Israel to be saved is not limited to the remnant of Israel only, but is also for Gentiles of faith, and together they are "Israel of God".

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Revelation pictures exactly this: a sealed Jewish remnant, numbered 144,000, set apart to carry “the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus” (Rev 7; 14).

The 144,000 is a depiction of the Old Covenant faithful remnant who had lived and died before the advent of Christ. Before seeing them in Rev 7 being sealed through the Spirit of Christ, we see them also in Rev 6 as martyred souls under the altar. Because they could not ascend to heaven the spiritual body as living souls until the blood of Christ was shed to make atonement for sin and was resurrected to defeat death. To be under the altar symbolizes those who believed in the Messiah to come were separated for salvation according to Covenant promise.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

After being sealed with the name of God written in their foreheads, the same Jewish remnant is seen again, but now in heaven, on Mt Sion with the Lamb, being firstfruits of eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ.

Revelation 14:1-4 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

God awakens Israel to her own Messiah so that a recognizable company from Israel proclaims Him to the nations with apostolic clarity—just as Paul did after his encounter.

You need to prove what you allege here. The ministry of Paul when his eyes were opened was that he would proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to Gentiles until the last Gentiles to be saved are securely in Christ, then shall come the end, not more time for Israel in blindness to be saved.

 

[CTK]

Where does Scripture say that God will lift the blindness from Israel in unbelief?

The prophetic words of Zechariah were fulfilled when Christ sent His Spirit "of grace and supplications" on the day of Pentecost, and devout Jews from every nation under heaven heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God preached and those who heard were pricked in the heart, asking what they must do to be saved.

Zechariah 12:10 (KJV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joel 2:27-32 (KJV) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:32-39 (KJV) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Paul does not say that partial blindness of Israel shall be lifted. You're reading dispensational doctrine into the text. Paul says only that partial blindness happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. He does not say the blindness in part would then be lifted. He says that all Israel shall be saved through the fullness of Gentiles who are saved with the faithful remnant of Israel. They will be saved because the Covenant is unto them when God takes away their sins. The Covenant of redemption through Christ does not come through ethnicity, rather it comes through faith. That's how we know that all Israel to be saved is not limited to the remnant of Israel only, but is also for Gentiles of faith, and together they are "Israel of God".

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



The 144,000 is a depiction of the Old Covenant faithful remnant who had lived and died before the advent of Christ. Before seeing them in Rev 7 being sealed through the Spirit of Christ, we see them also in Rev 6 as martyred souls under the altar. Because they could not ascend to heaven the spiritual body as living souls until the blood of Christ was shed to make atonement for sin and was resurrected to defeat death. To be under the altar symbolizes those who believed in the Messiah to come were separated for salvation according to Covenant promise.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

After being sealed with the name of God written in their foreheads, the same Jewish remnant is seen again, but now in heaven, on Mt Sion with the Lamb, being firstfruits of eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ.

Revelation 14:1-4 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



You need to prove what you allege here. The ministry of Paul when his eyes were opened was that he would proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God to Gentiles until the last Gentiles to be saved are securely in Christ, then shall come the end, not more time for Israel in blindness to be saved.

I believe we interpret the Scriptures very differently. I don’t ask you to prove your interpretations—- they are just that - your interpretations perhaps even using many of the same verses.

I am very comfortable with my interpretations, as I am sure you feel the same.

 

[rwb]

I believe we interpret the Scriptures very differently. I don’t ask you to prove your interpretations—- they are just that - your interpretations perhaps even using many of the same verses.

I am very comfortable with my interpretations, as I am sure you feel the same.

To my knowledge Charlie there is only ONE way to interpret Scripture! We must allow Scripture to interpret itself, through the Spirit of Christ in us, and though I know you believe you are doing exactly that, in truth IMO you have allowed dispensationalism, possibly Zionism to influence how you interpret biblical doctrines. Which is why you cannot prove from the Bible all that you allege is biblical doctrine.

 

[CTK]

To my knowledge Charlie there is only ONE way to interpret Scripture! We must allow Scripture to interpret itself, through the Spirit of Christ in us, and though I know you believe you are doing exactly that, in truth IMO you have allowed dispensationalism, possibly Zionism to influence how you interpret biblical doctrines. Which is why you cannot prove from the Bible all that you allege is biblical doctrine.

No, we use many of the same verses … we interpret them differently and connect them differently.

If we look at “today’s accepted interpretations” for most of Daniel there is no consensus.

Those brilliant scholars, academics, theologians and interpreters we all read have very different interpretations.

Most use an historical approach - they sit with the Book of Daniel on one side of their desk and have their history books on the other side and go back and forth trying to match them together. When that fails, and it does for so much of Daniel, they then claim the events and actors must not have taken place - let’s throw them deep into the future some 2000 years later.

Example: most contend there is a 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th week in chapter 9 prophecy. Almost ALL contend there is a literal anti-Christ figure that will arrive at the end time… there are perhaps hundreds of these “accepted interpretations” that have no basis in Scripture.

So, there are thousands of ways people interpret Scripture…. And Daniel is by far, the most difficult book to interpret. And an even better example would be chapter 11. Perhaps 99.9% of interpreters from the last 300 years contend it speaks about the post-Alexander Greek period. They even go so far as to claim that these verses are so accurate to our history books that they must have been written, not by Daniel, but another author after they occurred. Yet, they have absolutely nothing to do with the post- Greek kingdom. Again, this is a direct result of trying to interpret chapter 11 through a purely historical lens— Daniel is not an accounting of our historical record.

You obviously have a terrific understanding of the Scriptures but we all see them through our own very different lenses.

I have given you verses that I find to support my interpretations… I never give one line answers that hang in the wind like so many. I always attempt to present a storyline- not just a quick opinion that doesn’t link with other verses.

No dispensation or Zionist here… I can take the interpretations in chapter 1 all the way through to chapter 23 and then bring them forward to tie into Revelation. Meaning, one storyline… consistency, honoring the 4 kingdom structure given in Daniel by God all the way through Revelation, adding no new actors not found in Daniel, etc.

Now, you may not agree with those interpretations but I am very comfortable with them.