The 10 horns coming out of pagan Rome, you're not serious. Scripture confirms scripture, not history. Read Psalm 83. Count the nations.
Look at Ishmael and esaus blessings, Rome isn't in Genesis. The book of beginnings Isaiah 46.10.
Daniel 7 - 10 horns....
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Look at Ishmael and esaus blessings, Rome isn't in Genesis. The book of beginnings Isaiah 46.10.
I am not who has been using the terms "pagan Rome" and "papal Rome". .
The little horn person and the ten kings (the ten horns) will come out of the EU. The EU is the Roman kingdom manifested in the end times.
Brakelite
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CT
Andreas Helwig (1572–1643), a German classical scholar and Lutheran teacher. In 1612, he published Antichristus Romanus (“The Roman Antichrist”), presenting and supporting the idea that "Vicarius Filii Dei" numerically totals 666 using Roman numerals. Helwig examined various titles in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, but preferred "Vicarius Filii Dei" as meeting several conditions connected to the papal office and the prophecy of Revelation 13:18. His work was a foundational text in Historicist Protestant interpretations associating the Papacy with the prophetic Antichrist, and his calculation became influential especially among later writers and denominations such as the Seventh-day Adventists
There are several excellent history books that speak of the Antichrist, but they are written by genuine protestants. Modern day Protestantism is found only in the few. The few that haven't given up the fight against heresy, and haven't stopped proclaiming truth, and are still speaking truth to power. Those old books by such as Wylie, Dowling, Foxe, Schaff, Mosheim and d’Aubigné. There is an even older book that is long forgotten, but still available, from
Andreas Helwig (1572–1643), a German classical scholar and Lutheran teacher. In 1612, he published Antichristus Romanus (“The Roman Antichrist”), presenting and supporting the idea that "Vicarius Filii Dei" numerically totals 666 using Roman numerals. Helwig examined various titles in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, but preferred "Vicarius Filii Dei" as meeting several conditions connected to the papal office and the prophecy of Revelation 13:18. His work was a foundational text in Historicist Protestant interpretations associating the Papacy with the prophetic Antichrist, and his calculation became influential especially among later writers and denominations such as the Seventh-day Adventists
Brakelite
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You are violently ripping apart history to suit your theories. The ten horns that grew from pagan Rome formed the foundation of modern Europe. You cannot, must not, discard 1500 years on European history and plunge it into some imagined prophetic dust bin. The principle nations of modern Europe have the same DNA so to speak as those tribal forbears that established their territorial bases to the north of the Mediterranean.
VISIGOTHS.......... SPAIN
ANGLO SAXONS..... ENGLAND
FRANKS.......... FRANCE
ALEMANNI ........ GERMANY
BURGUNDIANS ...... SWITZERLAND
LOMBARDS ....... ITALY
SUEVI ......... PORTUGAL
HERULI .......... ROOTED UP
OSTROGOTHS ..... ROOTED UP
VANDALS ....... ROOTED UP
You may recognise some of those names in present day geographical locations. Lombardy, As Allemaine, Saxony, etc. Those ten above may not be graphically explicit, because there has been some overlapping and territorial disputations since then. Nevertheless, as a principle and guide, many historians name the above as fairly accurate.
Further evidence to that principle is the prophecy from Daniel saying,
“41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. ”
Daniel 2:41-43 KJV
Here is the classic prophetic picture of the change in nature of pagan to papal Rome, even right there in Daniel 2. The iron was never completely destroyed. It united with the clay, which is symbolic of God's people. But it turned out to be miry clay, unworkable and only with of being thrown out. The Potter can do little with miry clay. It must be extensively prepared. Cleaned of impurities and excess water and mud. So there's hope for individual Catholics if they repent and are willing to change. The system itself however is unredeemable. That union however between pagan Rome and the church s speaks not only of a political union, but more significantly of a spiritual union in which the church embraced pagan ideas, philosophies and traditions, and turned them into false Christian rituals and litany. Note the prophecy, they could not cleave to one another, despite intermarriage, mingling of the seed... Children... With men. Just as iron can not mix with clay, so the church can not mix with the state. How accurate is the prophecy when compared with European history, even from its earliest centuries from the 5th and 6th centuries on? You cannot discard it or ignore it or rip it out and throw it into some unknown future. That completely obliterates and tramples upon truth, (Daniel 8:12) just as the Jesuits did when they invented the hermeneutic you so dearly cleave to and teach.
Your right you weren't dont know what happened there, but swap Rome for EU. Probably same reasoning applies.
The 10 horns coming out of pagan Rome, you're not serious. Scripture confirms scripture, not history. Read Psalm 83. Count the nations. Follow which nations the little come from. It ain't Rome
Look at Ishmael and Esaus' blessings, Rome isn't in Genesis. The book of beginnings Isaiah 46.10.
Its never Rome, its been preached for centuries but Dan 12.4 is a recent occurrence (I believe). It can only be islam, why? The brothers of Jacob and Isaac. It has to be biblical and He told us the end from the beginning. Ie it has to be in the scripture from Genesis through.And it is Gen 16.11,12, Gen 27.39,40. Even the death of Abel, the older will serve the younger. Gen 4.1-9 Am I my brothers keeper. Always the older serving the younger, Esau/ Jacob, Ishmael/Isaac.
I have read and interpreted it as prophecy! This was written through Daniel some 700 years before the arrival of Christ and another 500 years after Christ.
So he told me the interpretation of these things: 17‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth...
23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom...
Dan 7
I think a lot of confusion arise because in the chapter, the four beasts are both called kingdoms and kings. The fourth beast slayed, therefore, can be about a king, not about a whole kingdom/empire.
23This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom...
Dan 7
I think a lot of confusion arise because in the chapter, the four beasts are both called kingdoms and kings. The fourth beast slayed, therefore, can be about a king, not about a whole kingdom/empire.
But it wasn’t… it was to predict the coming of Jesus during His first arrival and the revealing of the one (little horn) who would go against the church that He established at the cross.
So what are Dan 8.17,19, 26 saying. And then again in Dan 11.36, until the time of wrath is fulfilled and again in Dan 12.1, a time of distress, then Dan 12.4, roll up and seal the words until the time of the end, and Dan 12.9 and 13.
Maybe its mentioned 8 times to try and get us to pay attention.
Here is a partial cut / paste from my Daniel 8 chapter commentary that might give you a different view of this topic. The English word "vision" is found 9 times in chapter 8 but there are two very different "visions" given to Daniel. One is the "chazon" vision which is the long term vision that extends from 457 BC to the end of time. The shorter "mareh" vision covers a very specific time period of only 2300 days and refers to the time of the Messiah. Therefore, it is necessary to understand what prophetic messages belong to each of these two visions. Also, there are certainly important events - like the 70 weeks of years prophecy that is WITHIN the "chazon" vision but takes place from 457 BC to 33/34 AD. Now, this just gives you something to consider regarding the understanding of where, why and how these prophecies and visions are to be applied. Most of Daniel is fulfilled from 606 BC to ~ 500 AD WITH some very important broad prophecies of the "true" end times - But that is where Revelation picks up because Revelation was not written for the Jews as Daniel was but for all who would come after His first coming.
Perhaps after considering just how complicated Daniel is to interpret, perhaps you might mention how and why you feel those verses you mentioned above come to be fulfilled?
In verses 13–14, Daniel records a brief but extraordinary conversation between two heavenly beings. One is identified as the “Certain One”—a title widely understood to refer to the Lord Himself. The other is Gabriel, who poses a direct and weighty question to the Lord. He asks:
“How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the Sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
At first glance, this may appear to be a simple inquiry. But it carries deep prophetic significance, revealing a layered timeline that stretches from the days of the Messiah to the rise of the little horn, and ultimately to the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary. Gabriel’s question is rooted in the broader vision Daniel received earlier—what the Hebrew text calls the chazon. This word refers to the long-range, sweeping vision that spans centuries, first mentioned in Daniel 8:1–2 and encompassing the rise and fall of world empires. Gabriel’s question includes four key elements:
The daily sacrifices,
The transgression of desolation,
The trampling of the Sanctuary, and
The trampling of the host.
Each of these elements plays a critical role in the unfolding of redemptive history—but they do not all belong to the same time period. The first two—the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation—are focused on the final “week” of Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy. These are events that point directly to the crucifixion of the Messiah and the spiritual desolation that follows as many among His own people reject Him. The daily sacrifices are brought to an end not by force, but by fulfillment—through Christ’s once-for-all offering of Himself.
The final two—the trampling of the Sanctuary and the host—occur later, after the cross, and are tied to the rise of the little horn. This horn, representing a corrupt and self-exalting power, casts truth to the ground, distorts the meaning of Christ’s finished work, and brings long-term oppression to both God’s people and His heavenly dwelling.
In verse 13, the angelic question concerns the chazon—the sweeping, long-range vision of kingdoms and conflicts stretching to the time of the end. Yet before Gabriel can receive or relay an answer to that broad question, God interrupts with something far more personal. He speaks directly to Daniel, giving the time element for the mareh—the shorter, appearance-focused vision that points to the Messiah’s redemptive work. It is as though God is saying, Daniel, the rise and fall of empires matters, but what matters most is the moment when I step into history to restore what was lost. The mareh is the heartbeat of the chazon, and so God addresses it first, making sure Daniel knows that the central event—the cleansing brought by the Messiah—has already been set in time by His own decree.
In verse 14, God responds—not to Gabriel, but directly to Daniel. And in doing so, He shifts the focus from the broad chazon to the heart of it: the mareh vision—the redemptive appearance of the Messiah:
“For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Sanctuary shall be cleansed.”
This divine answer is precise and deeply symbolic. The phrase “evenings and mornings” does more than simply measure time. First, it echoes the language of the creation account in Genesis, where each day is marked by “evening and morning,” signaling God’s intentionality, order, and completeness. But second—and perhaps even more significantly—it also points to the morning and evening sacrifices offered daily in the earthly sanctuary. These continual offerings represented the covenant relationship between God and His people and foreshadowed the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah.
By using this exact phrase, “evening and morning,” God ties together the entire redemptive arc—from creation, to covenant, to the cross. In Genesis, evening and morning marked the rhythm of creation. In the sanctuary, evening and morning framed the daily offerings. Both find their true fulfillment in Christ, the Lamb of God, who brought the daily sacrifices to completion through His death.
With His offering complete, the heavenly sanctuary would then be prepared for its cleansing—not on earth, but in heaven itself. This is where Daniel’s vision becomes so remarkable. The mareh vision points directly to the coming Messiah and His sacrificial work.
It is the heart of all prophecy, marking the most critical moment in human history. Just as God once gave Moses the Ten Words—the foundation of Torah and the wider Tanakh—He now gives Daniel clarity about the appearance of the Messiah.
The mareh vision of the Messiah’s sacrifice is embedded within the seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, and that prophecy itself is nestled inside the larger chazon vision, which stretches across centuries. Daniel may not have grasped the full magnitude of what he was hearing—perhaps even sensing that something dreadful awaited his Lord—but God revealed something extraordinary: the sanctuary will be cleansed. The Messiah will accomplish it, and heaven itself will bear witness.
Verses where Chazon is found
Daniel 8:1: A vision appeared to me.
Daniel 8:2: I saw in the vision.
Daniel 8:13: How long will the vision be?
Daniel 8:15: had seen the vision.
Daniel 8:17: The vision refers to the time of the end.
Daniel 8:26: Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days
in the future.
Verses where Mareh is found
Daniel 8:16: Make this man understand the vision.
Daniel 8:26: The vision of the evenings and mornings.
Daniel 8:27: Astonished at the vision, but no one understood it.
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