Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[ewq1938]

How can Revelation 12 be before the tribulation given this verse?

That isn't the Tribulation spoke of in the OD.

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Additionally, how can Rev 12 be before the tribulation and then you say this? The last verse identifies the war (the trib) is against Christians, not those of Judaism.

The woman is Irael. The woman's seed are the 12 tribes across the earth.

No. First, it says the remnant of her seed not her seed. Second, it identifies them as Christians:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Douggg]

No. First, it says the remnant of her seed not her seed. Second, it identifies them as Christians:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Jews become Christians in Revelation 12:10.

The Jews who heed Jesus's words to flee right away to the mountains when they see abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (the temple mount) are the ones in Revelation 12:14. Protected there, from Satan - for a time, times, half time.

Those Jews who don't flee right away are the remnant of her seed. With their paths of escape cut off, they will be exposed to persecution by Satan until Jesus returns.

 

[ewq1938]

The Jews become Christians in Revelation 12:10.

Nope.

The Jews who heed Jesus's words to flee right away to the mountains when they see abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (the temple mount) are the ones in Revelation 12:14. Protected there, from Satan - for a time, times, half time.

All of Rev 12 is BEFORE the AC does anything.

Those Jews who don't flee right away are the remnant of her seed. With their paths of escape cut off, they will be exposed to persecution by Satan until Jesus returns.

There is no escape that is cut off or missed. It does not exist and isn't supposed to exist. God has ordained that the whole and complete Church go through the full tribulation. The rapture is only after the trib has ended, and is only for the living survivors of the trib.

 

[Douggg]

Nope.

All of Rev 12 is BEFORE the AC does anything.

There is no escape that is cut off or missed. It does not exist and isn't supposed to exist. God has ordained that the whole and complete Church go through the full tribulation. The rapture is only after the trib has ended, and is only for the living survivors of the trib.

The woman giving birth to Jesus in Revelation 12:1-5 is Israel. Not the church.

The woman throughout Revelation 12 is referring to Israel.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[ewq1938]

The woman giving birth to Jesus in Revelation 12:1-5 is Israel. Not the church.

So? Her seed is Jesus, who starts the NT Church who is the remnant of her seed mentioned in the last verse.

The woman throughout Revelation 12 is referring to Israel.

The dragon throughout Revelation 12 is referring to satan.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

2Ki_5:10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

 

[Douggg]

So? Her seed is Jesus, who starts the NT Church who is the remnant of her seed mentioned in the last verse.

Israel is the woman having on her head a crown of twelve stars, the twelve tribes of Israel, in Revelation 12:1. The remnant of her seed, not his seed, in Revelation 12:17 have the testimony of of Jesus.

The dragon throughout Revelation 12 is referring to satan.

correct.

2Ki_5:10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

What does that verse have to do with Revelation 12:1-5 ?

 

[Davy]

The woman is the Jews that live in national Israel.

There are TWO Israel's per God's Word after He split the old kingdom into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11. The putting back together of the two symbolic sticks God told Ezekiel to show the people in Ezekiel 37 is God's future restoration of the two separate 'houses', the "house of Judah" which represents the Jews of the southern kingdom originally at Jerusalem-Judea after the split, and then the "house of Israel" that represents only the ten northern tribes of Israel after that same split of 1 Kings 11.

I have tried to get brethren to simply 'read'... that history of God separating old Israel into two separate houses starting in 1 Kings 11, but many just won't listen.

The Book of Hosea contains prophecy of what God would do to the ten tribe "house of Israel" after He scattered them to the "wilderness" (i.e., new lands). That is not... about the "house of Judah" (Jews). When God scattered the ten tribes first out of the holy land, the 3 tribe "house of Judah" (Jews) remained in the land. Then about 200 years later, the "house of Judah" would be taken captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. So those were two separate captivities of two separate houses of Israel. If this is not understood as written, then one will get the specific prophecies to each separate 'house' mixed up.

Once God scattered the northern ten tribes of the "house of Israel" out of the holy land, and only the "house of Judah", the Jews, were left in the land, the Jews were the only ones remaining to claim heritage of old Israel, as it still is to this day. That is the reason why the majority keep wrongly claiming that all Israelites are Jews, when that is not true per history, nor per God's Word. The title of Jew is derived from the sole tribe of Judah, and was applied only to the southern "kingdom of Judah" made up of the tribes Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes that left the north when Jeroboam setup calf idol worship in the north. The majority of Israelites were the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. This per 1 Kings 11.

It's an easy read from 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 when God scattered the northern ten tribes first, so why not read it???

 

[Davy]

The seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth. In other words those of the 12 tribes that are not living in the nation of Israel.

Not truly accurate. All 12 tribes of Israel indeed are scattered among the nations. But those who represent the nation of Israel today still represent remnants of the 'one tribe' (Judah-Jews) which God promised He would always leave at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake. This again is written of in 1 Kings 11.

That means the unbelieving Jews today still... represent the "house of Judah", all over the world, but especially in the holy land today. Again, it's about the two sticks of Ezekiel 37. They are still separate today.

Ezek 37:15-22
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions:' then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions':

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, "Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

19 Say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
KJV

That has yet to happen, as it is about the future restoration of Israel in the holy land to include ALL... 12 tribes. Today, the majority of the ten northern tribes are lost, even the Jews don't know where they are. God caused that, made the majority of Israelites to lose their heritage as part of old Israel. But God has not lost them.

 

[Davy]

After the Church is raptured before the great tribulation, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The ones that have their blindness removed will be Jews. They become Christians and are the second harvest.

Sorry brother, but there is no such thing as a Pre-trib Rapture written of in God's Word.

Instead, Lord Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, as written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

Therefore, that "spirit of slumber" that Apostle Paul said God put upon the unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, will only be removed on the day of Christ's future coming, which is also when He gathers His Church after the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

There are two folds. The first fold is the Gentiles which hear His voice. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the second fold will be the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Yes, the Jews are currently blinded to fact that Jesus is the Messiah. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes blindness is remove from part of Israel.

We are warned not to be ignorant of this fact.

Again, wrongly applying that to a Pre-trib Rapture prior to the "great tribulation" is a doctrine of man, and not written in God's Word. Minus that false doctrine, the proper interpretation of the Revelation 12:7-17 comes forth, and it is this...

1. war in Heaven, no more place found in Heaven for Satan and his host, as they will be kicked down to earth, in our... earthly dimension. Satan will fulfill the role of false-Messiah-Antichrist in Jerusalem, literally. Those alive then will 'see' him as he is, on earth. He will deceive the whole world, except Christ's elect.

2. some of Christ's Church, i.e., elect saints, are delivered up to give a Witness for Jesus against the beast by The Holy Spirit speaking through them. They overcome the "dragon" (Satan) by the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus). This was prophesied also with the 5th Seal of Revelation 6. And that will be tribulation timing.

3. the time, times, and half a time equals a 1260 day period, in verse 14 about the symbolic "woman" which is Christ's elect, is tribulation timing. Per Matthew 24, Jesus showed that He shortened that tribulation time for the sake of His elect, so denying that His Church is not present through the "great tribulation" is futile.

4. The Testimony of Jesus Christ is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is an act of futility also to try and claim those with The Gospel are the unbelieving Jews, which men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory believes are the only ones of Israel that will go through the tribulation. That Testimony is about Christ's elect, a group of very elect within His Church, and it parallels what God's "two witnesses" do per Revelation 11 during that 1260 day latter half of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" (7 years). The "candlesticks" mentioned in Revelation 1 represents the 7 Churches. Two candlesticks are represented in that Witness against the beast per Revelation 11, which will be along with God's "two witnesses", the difference between God's "two witnesses" will be two specific servants of Christ giving His Testimony in Jerusalem. The two "candlesticks" (Churches) represent two Churches out of the seven that will give that Witness for Christ from all over the world. It will be the Witness for Jesus He mentioned in Mark 13.

 

[The Light]

There are TWO Israel's per God's Word after He split the old kingdom into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11. The putting back together of the two symbolic sticks God told Ezekiel to show the people in Ezekiel 37 is God's future restoration of the two separate 'houses', the "house of Judah" which represents the Jews of the southern kingdom originally at Jerusalem-Judea after the split, and then the "house of Israel" that represents only the ten northern tribes of Israel after that same split of 1 Kings 11.

I have tried to get brethren to simply 'read'... that history of God separating old Israel into two separate houses starting in 1 Kings 11, but many just won't listen.

The Book of Hosea contains prophecy of what God would do to the ten tribe "house of Israel" after He scattered them to the "wilderness" (i.e., new lands). That is not... about the "house of Judah" (Jews). When God scattered the ten tribes first out of the holy land, the 3 tribe "house of Judah" (Jews) remained in the land. Then about 200 years later, the "house of Judah" would be taken captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. So those were two separate captivities of two separate houses of Israel. If this is not understood as written, then one will get the specific prophecies to each separate 'house' mixed up.

Once God scattered the northern ten tribes of the "house of Israel" out of the holy land, and only the "house of Judah", the Jews, were left in the land, the Jews were the only ones remaining to claim heritage of old Israel, as it still is to this day. That is the reason why the majority keep wrongly claiming that all Israelites are Jews, when that is not true per history, nor per God's Word. The title of Jew is derived from the sole tribe of Judah, and was applied only to the southern "kingdom of Judah" made up of the tribes Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes that left the north when Jeroboam setup calf idol worship in the north. The majority of Israelites were the northern ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. This per 1 Kings 11.

It's an easy read from 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17 when God scattered the northern ten tribes first, so why not read it???

Thank you for proving my point. There is a difference between the woman and her seed as you have shown.

 

[The Light]

Not truly accurate. All 12 tribes of Israel indeed are scattered among the nations. But those who represent the nation of Israel today still represent remnants of the 'one tribe' (Judah-Jews) which God promised He would always leave at Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake. This again is written of in 1 Kings 11.

That means the unbelieving Jews today still... represent the "house of Judah", all over the world, but especially in the holy land today. Again, it's about the two sticks of Ezekiel 37. They are still separate today.

Ezek 37:15-22
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions:' then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions':

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, "Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

19 Say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
KJV

That has yet to happen, as it is about the future restoration of Israel in the holy land to include ALL... 12 tribes. Today, the majority of the ten northern tribes are lost, even the Jews don't know where they are. God caused that, made the majority of Israelites to lose their heritage as part of old Israel. But God has not lost them.

Been a while since I have seen someone playing the Coke, soft drink game of the Jews being of the house of Judah. Please quit wasting your time on this type of fruitless argument. Paul called himself a Jew even though he was out of the house of Benjamin.

 

[The Light]

Again, wrongly applying that to a Pre-trib Rapture prior to the "great tribulation" is a doctrine of man, and not written in God's Word. Minus that false doctrine, the proper interpretation of the Revelation 12:7-17 comes forth, and it is this...

Exactly. The pretribulation rapture is prior to the great tribulation.

1. war in Heaven, no more place found in Heaven for Satan and his host, as they will be kicked down to earth, in our... earthly dimension. Satan will fulfill the role of false-Messiah-Antichrist in Jerusalem, literally. Those alive then will 'see' him as he is, on earth. He will deceive the whole world, except Christ's elect.

The Church will already be in heaven before this occurs. The great tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble and is for the 12 tribes.

2. some of Christ's Church, i.e., elect saints, are delivered up to give a Witness for Jesus against the beast by The Holy Spirit speaking through them. They overcome the "dragon" (Satan) by the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus). This was prophesied also with the 5th Seal of Revelation 6. And that will be tribulation timing.

The Church is in heaven already.

3. the time, times, and half a time equals a 1260 day period, in verse 14 about the symbolic "woman" which is Christ's elect, is tribulation timing. Per Matthew 24, Jesus showed that He shortened that tribulation time for the sake of His elect, so denying that His Church is not present through the "great tribulation" is futile.

The great tribulation is for the Jews and has nothing to do with the Church as we have escaped all these things that will come to pass.

 

[Davy]

Thank you for proving my point. There is a difference between the woman and her seed as you have shown.

I did not prove your point, you simply have yet to understand.

The "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", though separated, are all... Israelites of the seed. Thus the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12 applies to BOTH houses before God split them into two nations.

And then the 'believers' of BOTH houses became the foundation of the Christian Church, first in Jerusalem, and then in Asia Minor and Europe once the majority of Jews rejected The Gospel in Judea. Furthermore, ONLY the "house of Judah" originally used the title of JEW for themselves, that title having been derived from the tribe of Judah (this per the Jewish historian Josephus).

So how much farther away from the actual Bible Truth about the two separate houses can one get by not understanding they BOTH represent the 'seed' of Israel?

 

[Davy]

Been a while since I have seen someone playing the Coke, soft drink game of the Jews being of the house of Judah. Please quit wasting your time on this type of fruitless argument. Paul called himself a Jew even though he was out of the house of Benjamin.

Your mocking The Word of God, not me. These things I speak of are all written. The "house of Judah" NEVER made up the majority of the 'seed' of Israel.

And yes, Apostle Paul like he said was a JEW born of the tribe of Benjamin.

The reason why... Paul said he was a JEW was because the THREE TRIBE "house of Judah" included both the tribes of Benjamin and Levi. If you had actually READ YOUR BIBLE in 1 Kings 11 & 12, and in 2 Chronicles 11, you would have known... this.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) wrote this about the return of the small remnant of Jews to Jerusalem from their Babylon captivity. The ten northern tribes at this time were still... scattered beyond Euphrates and did not involve them.

When he had said this, he gave order that the​

rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the​

people, according to their villages and cities, as every one's ability​

should require. And when he had added this promise, that he​

himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the​

assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work: that is the name they​

are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon, which is​

taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and​

thence both they and the country gained that appellation.​

(The Antiquity of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 11, Chapter 5)​

​

That means even FOREIGNERS that went captive with the "house of Judah" to Babylon and returned, also took that name JEW. All that lived in Judea were under God's law and the old covenant, including strangers that lived there.

Read your Bible and a little bit of history, instead of making up FALSE ACCUSATIONS THAT SHOW YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANCE.

 

[Davy]

Exactly. The pretribulation rapture is prior to the great tribulation.

That of course what you say is a LIE. There is no such concept of a Pre-tribulational Rapture written of in God's Word.

The Church will already be in heaven before this occurs.

That idea is NOT WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD.

The Church is in heaven already.

Again, that idea is NOT WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD.

The great tribulation is for the Jews and has nothing to do with the Church as we have escaped all these things that will come to pass.

And still once again, neither is that idea written in God's Word.

By what my Lord Jesus Christ said below, He revealed that HIS elect WILL GO THROUGH THE GREAT TRIBULATION...

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

Jesus would never have said the above about HIS "elect's sake" involving that "great tribulation" if they are not meant to go through it. So not only does the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine you keep LIE against the actual written Bible Scriptures, but also lies against what Lord Jesus Himself said!

And in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus emphatically showed that the time of His coming to gather the Church will be AFTER... the "great tribulation".

MOCK all you want then, but you only pile up hot coals on your head which The LORD will place upon you, and hopefully purge your soul from the wicked doctrines of men you instead hold as truth.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Verse 29 is about the DOTL event, the asteroid impact in the middle of the week brings "TROUBLES & DARKNESS" as Rev. 8 shows. Trumps 1-4 is one event, an asteroid impact, the Seals prophesy this event beforetime.

So, vs. 29 is not the 2nd Coming and there is no such thing, it is referring unto the 2nd advent not a 2nd coming, Jesus has come to earth many, many, many times, he was the Man in linen in Dan. 12, he was the Rock in the Desert following Israel, he went to heaven, offered the Sacrifice to God then returned 8 days later in John 20. He told Mary do not touch me for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, yet 8 days later he told doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, meaning we went to heaven and brought bacl the gift of the holy spirit to the betrothed bride (Church).

All this 2nd coming stuff is just people who do nit understand, there are two advents not two comings. Therefore they take a NON EVENT, and say Jesus can't not rapture the church then return with the church, all because they have erred in their understandings from the get go.

Back to verse 29, it is obvious it is about the middle of the week asteroid impact that begins the 1260 day DOTL/Wrath of God events. We know the 1st Woe lasts 5 months, so that does away with the whole IMMEDIATELY AFTER thesis, its specifically says immediately after the tribulation [ARRIVES on earth] the Sun and Moon goes dark, yes that will happen after the 1/3 of the worlds trees burn, and think will this fire jump across an ocean? No, the 1/3 identifies a destination, the New World will get judged with fire, the Old World will be hit with the plagues of God to preserve the old world for Jesus' 1000 year rule.

AND THEN in vs. 30..............means 1260 days later, Jesus returns with he church in hand to defeat the Beast and all of his minions.

In Rev. 14:14 we see the Pre Trib. Rapture with Jesus himself harvesting us the church, notice and Angel sticks in the sickle to harvest in verses 17-20, but Jesus from upon a cloud harvests the church.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Of course they are describing the one and only coming of Jesus. The armies who are following Him have been resurrected from the dead / changed following the tribulation.

IMO for as long as Pre-tribulationists continue to conflate "the tribulation" with the wrath / judgment of God which follows it, pre and post tribulationists will continue to talk past one another.

An Asteroid hits, that is the earths Judgment. The Anti-Christ is then allowed to go forth conquering but ONLY from that point on at the middle of the week. And by the way, Isaiah 10:5-6 proves the Anti-Christ is a part of God's Wrath under the guise the Assyrian.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

So, the Tribulation and Wrath are ONE AND THE SAME. It will be a 1260 day period of time from the middle of the 70th week until Jesus returns to kill the Anti-Christ/False Prophet and to imprison Satan.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Two different events.

It's a pre-wrath, post-tribulation rapture. Pre-tribulationists conflate "the tribulation" - which is talking about the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast - with the wrath of God which follows it.

It will be a pre 70th week rapture. Israel brings the Messiah. God rents the temple and gets Paul to go to the Gentiles tom bring the Gospel unto the whole world. Romans 9-11 is about SERVICE unto God, that is why Paul gives example after example of how God alone chooses whom He will, when He wills. He hardened Pharaohs heart, he chose Jacob over Esau before they were born, he is the Potter who creates the vessel He so chooses. So, after all that why do we not grasp Romans 11 meaning? The Fulness of the Gentiles is talking about SERVICE unto God. Knowing that lets look at it again.

Romans 11:23 And they also(Israel), if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree(God rent the temple or left it, because of unbelief) which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part(Meaning as a NATION ONLY, not as individuals, of course) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [SERVICE unto God] be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be savedMeaning ALL 12 Tribes, not ever Jew, of course, if only one man from every tribe made it, ALL Israel would still be saved meaning EACH TRIBE) as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Now, when does Israel get saved? During the 70th week of course see Zechariah 13:8-9 the 1/3 repent or the 5 million Jews (All Israelites are now called Jews because they are in Judea its that simple) and thus only AFTER the Fullness of the Gentiles SERVICE comes full, meaning we are out of here, our jobs on this earth is over, the Harvest Season is ended by the Feast of Trumps (LAST TRUMP).

It mystifies me you guys can not see God's glorious intentions with all the clues He has left us.

OR - in your opinion - since the verses describing the tribulation in the New Testament ALL use the same Greek word, what in your opinion is the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29? Is it the same as the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9?

No, Matt. 24:15 STARTS the 70th week. Verses 4-14 were about the First Century Church.

 

[The Light]

So how much farther away from the actual Bible Truth about the two separate houses can one get by not understanding they BOTH represent the 'seed' of Israel?

Let me clarify for you.

Those in the nation of Israel are the woman. Those around the world are the seed of the woman. When the dragon goes after the woman, he is going after those in Israel. Those in Israel flee to a place of protection.

When the dragon can't get to the woman, he goes after her seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth.

 

[The Light]

The "house of Judah" NEVER made up the majority of the 'seed' of Israel.

Exactly. 100% true.

And yes, Apostle Paul like he said was a JEW born of the tribe of Benjamin.

The reason why... Paul said he was a JEW was because the THREE TRIBE "house of Judah" included both the tribes of Benjamin and Levi. If you had actually READ YOUR BIBLE in 1 Kings 11 & 12, and in 2 Chronicles 11, you would have known... this.

I already know this.

What you don't seem to know is that those that live in the nation of Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.

Those scattered around the world that are not in Israel are her seed no matter whether they are from the house of Judah or the house of Israel.

James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) wrote this about the return of the small remnant of Jews to Jerusalem from their Babylon captivity. The ten northern tribes at this time were still... scattered beyond Euphrates and did not involve them.

When he had said this, he gave order that the​

rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the​

people, according to their villages and cities, as every one's ability​

should require. And when he had added this promise, that he​

himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the​

assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work: that is the name they​

are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon, which is​

taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and​

thence both they and the country gained that appellation.​

(The Antiquity of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 11, Chapter 5)​

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That means even FOREIGNERS that went captive with the "house of Judah" to Babylon and returned, also took that name JEW. All that lived in Judea were under God's law and the old covenant, including strangers that lived there.

Read your Bible and a little bit of history, instead of making up FALSE ACCUSATIONS THAT SHOW YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANCE.

You should probably climb down of that high horse. You have no clue about what I know about history.