ARE THEIR TWO CHURCHES OR JUST ONE?

[Doug]

To all who stand before God as disciples of his son, we are told to “preach the word”, obeying Jesus’ command in Matt 28:19-20. It is a command for all Christians....those who think it doesn’t apply to them...think again.

Here is our command not Matthew 28..............
[2 Corinthians 5:20 KJV] "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."
[2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV] "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is our command not Matthew 28..............
[2 Corinthians 5:20 KJV] "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."
[2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV] "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

You are a disciple of Paul, who was a disciple of......Jesus....Paul did not teach something different to the other apostles....this is nonsense.

What is an ambassador? They are representatives of their Sovereign. Christ himself was an ambassador for his Father, sent as his representative, and his Father taught him what to say....nothing came from his own originality as he stated very clearly. (John 8:28)

“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.” (John 7:16-18 ESV)

As an ambassador, would Paul do what Jesus didn’t? Would he teach something different to the other apostles when he represented them all in saying.....
“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1 Cor 8:6 ESV)

Paul was taught by the same person who taught the other apostles...Jesus...and Christ was taught by his Father.....there was no separate gospel or mission. All were sent out to preach one message. All had the responsibility to take the Christian message out to anyone who will listen. Paul was not one of the 12 but specially chosen as “an apostle to the nations”.....his message was the same but to a different audience.

Who has taken you down a road to nowhere?

 

[Ezra]

The only conclusion that can be reached is that there are TWO CHURCHES. There is Peter's church and there is the body of Christ.

no sir there is not two churches bodies there is one true Church that Jesus said he would build upon the rock... the Church is the body of Christ which has many members... one lord one faith one Baptism

Ephesians 4:5-6
​

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.. there is no nationality nor race in the Body of Christ.

 

[saved by grace 101]

All had to be baptized in water first....only then would they receive the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius and his household?

 

[rockytopva]

One Church... Millions of congregations...

1. Ephesus - Messianic Jewish Church
2. Smyrna - Oriental Orthodox - The Roman persecutions were ten
3. Pergamos - Greek Orthodox - Pergos... A tower... Needed in the dark ages
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Middle ages
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardis is a gem... Beautiful,,, Not much spiritually
6. Philadelphia - Wesleyan - Too bad the revivals didn't last longer
7. Laodicean - Word of Faith - Rich and have need of nothing?

Seven candlesticks - Seven generalized congregation - All unique - And Christ walking in the midst
Seven seals - Those names written in the Lambs Book of Life
Seven stars - Those messengers to the congregations - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 1 - King James Version

 

[Doug]

You are a disciple of Paul, who was a disciple of......Jesus....Paul did not teach something different to the other apostles....this is nonsense.

Peter's apostleship:
He was chosen by Jesus Christ to be an apostle along with the other eleven disciples before Paul. Peter was primarily the apostle to Israel (Galatians 2:8). Peter's apostleship was diminishing after Paul was converted.

Paul's apostleship:
Paul was persecuting the church of God before being converted. After his conversion Paul was given revelations from the Lord Jesus Christ; Paul did not learn from any man including the twelve apostles (Galatians 1:12). Paul was primarily the apostle to Gentiles (Romans 11:13 2 Timothy 1:11).

Peter's Justification:
Peter and the other eleven apostles taught justification unto eternal life by believing on the name of Jesus; by believing Jesus is Christ, the Son of God (Acts 10:43 Matthew 16:16 Acts 4:12 Acts 2:36 John 20:31).

Peter preached that Israel under the old covenant was redeemed and cleansed by the crucifixion and shed blood of Jesus (Matthew 26:28 Hebrews 9:15 1 Peter 1:2 1 Peter 1:18-19 1 Peter 2:24). Peter preached forgiveness of sin for the nation of Israel at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 3:19).

Paul's Justification:
Paul taught justification unto eternal life by the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18 Galatians 6:14 Colossians 1:20). Justification by faith believing that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again for complete salvation unto eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Colossians 2:10). Paul taught forgiveness of all sin now by the blood of Jesus (Ephesians 1:7 Colossians 2:13).

Peter's gospel:
Peter preached remission of sins in the name of Jesus (Acts 10:43). Peter taught the gospel of the kingdom (Luke 9:2 Luke 9:6 2 Peter 1:11). Israel would inherit the promise of the Davidic kingdom on earth (Luke 1:32 Genesis 13:15 Ezekiel 37:24-28). Israel would rule and reign with Jesus for a thousand year period (Revelation 20:6 Revelation 5:10).

Paul's gospel:
Paul taught the gospel of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7). Paul taught salvation to all freely by faith in Christ apart from the covenants of Israel, and apart from keeping the law (Romans 9:4 Romans 3:28 Galatians 2:19).

Peter and the resurrection:
Peter preached the gospel of the circumcision (Galatians 2:7). Israel under the old covenant promises was promised to be a holy nation, a kingdom of kings and priests to rule over the Gentile nations with Christ (1 Peter 2:9 Revelation 1:6 Exodus 19:6 Revelation 5:10). Peter preached that the resurrection of Christ gave Israel assurance of that coming kingdom because Christ was raised to sit on the throne of David in that prophetic kingdom (1 Peter 1:3 Acts 3:25 Acts 2:30). Peter preached the receiving of the Holy Ghost to empower Israel to enter the kingdom (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:8 Acts 2:33 Acts 2:38).

Paul and the resurrection:
Paul taught that Christ was risen for our justification (Romans 4:25).

Peter and works:
Peter preached works as necessary for salvation in order to enter the kingdom (Acts 10:35 1 Peter 1:15 1 Peter 2:9 2 Peter 1:10-11). Peter preached to Israel repentance and baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Peter preached holiness, and to remain steadfast unto the coming of Jesus and his kingdom (2 Peter 3:17).

Paul and works:
Paul taught salvation without works (Titus 3:5 Romans 4:6 Ephesians 2:8-9).

Peter and the church:
Peter preached to Israel (Acts 3:12). Gentiles had to come through Israel and it's covenants to be added to the church (Exodus 12:48 Acts 11:1); Gentiles had to believe the preaching of the word delivered to Israel as preached by Peter (Acts 13:48).

Paul and the church:
Paul taught the church as the body of Christ, a new creature where there was neither Jew or Gentile (Galatians 6:15 Galatians 3:28 Ephesians 2:14).

Peter and heaven:
Peter taught that Israel would receive the kingdom on earth (Matthew 10:7 Luke 9:2 Luke 9:6 2 Peter 1:11 Acts 2:30). He taught their reward was stored in heaven but not in heaven (1 Peter 1:4).

Paul and heaven:
Paul taught the church seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6).

Both Peter and Paul were ordained of God to preach the gospel. Those who believed their gospels are in Christ. Peter's gospel faded away as Israel was diminished, and is not the gospel that is preached today. Paul preaches the gospel by which we are saved today. Paul in his epistles reveal the mysteries and doctrine for the church today.

 

[Doug]

Paul was not one of the 12 but specially chosen as “an apostle to the nations”.....his message was the same but to a different audience.

Peter and the twelve and Paul preached different gospels for salvation

THE TWELVE
Jesus and the twelve preached eternal life by believing on the name of Jesus NOT the cross. They had to believe on his name, that he was the Christ, the Son of God
[John 3:18 KJV] "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
[Acts 4:12 KJV] "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
[Acts 10:43 KJV] "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
[John 20:31 KJV] "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

PAUL
Paul preached eternal life by believing that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification. Paul preached the cross.
[1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV] "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

[1 Corinthians 15:1 KJV] "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;"
[1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV] "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
[1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV] "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

[Romans 4:25 KJV] "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

 

[Doug]

no sir there is not two churches bodies there is one true Church that Jesus said he would build upon the rock... the Church is the body of Christ which has many members... one lord one faith one Baptism

So there is one church that Jesus built and made Peter and the eleven apostles. To be one of the twelve they had to have been with Christ since John's baptism............[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."...........Paul was NOT ordained to be a witness from John's baptism, so he couldn't be an apostle along with the twelve in the church Christ built.

If there is only one church with apostles established by Christ how could Paul be an apostle in it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Cornelius and his household?

Cornelius was the exception….in order for Peter to truly understand the significance of the vision he had been given concerning the unclean animals he was told to slaughter and eat, he was entering the home of the first Gentile convert to Christianity….the first one not to have to convert to Judaism first.

By receiving the Holy Spirit before their baptism, he and his household were giving Peter confirmation that this was indeed God’s direction. There is no other example of this ever happening again. Water baptism was followed by baptism of the spirit, only for the elect, who were chosen first.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Cornelius was the exception….in order for Peter to truly understand the significance of the vision he had been given concerning the unclean animals he was told to slaughter and eat, he was entering the home of the first Gentile convert to Christianity….the first one not to have to convert to Judaism first.

By receiving the Holy Spirit before their baptism, he and his household were giving Peter confirmation that this was indeed God’s direction. There is no other example of this ever happening again. Water baptism was followed by baptism of the spirit, only for the elect, who were chosen first.

Best not to put God in a box so to speak. He can do whatever he wishes. If the experience of Cornelius could happen, it can happen again .

 

[Button]

The church is the whole total of the faithful in Christ.

God is not found in buildings made by man. So,how could God be consigned to any one denomination?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So there is one church that Jesus built and made Peter and the eleven apostles.

No….the apostles formed the foundation of one “church”…..”One Lord, one faith, one baptism”…..not two.

To be one of the twelve they had to have been with Christ since John's baptism............[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."...........

This is where you seem to get lost….the apostles, who were chosen by Jesus, were the ones charged with keeping things on track after Jesus died. When Judas defected, another disciple was chosen to take his place…Matthias. So there was still 12.

Do you know what an apostle is?
Strongs defines this word “apostolos” as…

“a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders”…

So one could be an “apostle“ without being one of the 12.

Paul was appointed as “an apostle to the nations” so he was the only educated apostle….specially chosen because of his education and background.

Paul introduced himself in 1 Cor 1:1-3 NKJV…
“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul was “called to be an apostle” and was among those “called to be saints” with all those who identify Jesus as their Lord, which he calls “their Lord and ours”. Then he wishes them “grace and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ”.

It didn’t mean that Paul preached a different gospel…he just had a different audience…especially to the ones he encountered in his ministry. The Greek philosophers for example, would not have been inclined to give an ear to uneducated fishermen.
Like Jesus, the 12 were originally sent to none but “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.….but that changed after Jesus’ death. Peter was sent to Cornelius and the way was open for gentiles to come to Christ through their preaching. The other apostles accepted Paul as an apostle, none mentioned a different gospel….or a different ministry.

Paul was NOT ordained to be a witness from John's baptism, so he couldn't be an apostle along with the twelve in the church Christ built.

Paul did not need to be one of the 12 in order to act in the capacity that Christ gave him. Paul preached the same kingdom message as the other apostles….there was just one…not two.

If there is only one church with apostles established by Christ how could Paul be an apostle in it?

You have missed the point entirely…..”the church” was a figurative “building”, but the 12 apostles were its foundation… not the entire building itself, members of which continued to be gathered even after the apostles died.
Unfortunately, an apostasy was foretold whereby the devil was to produce a counterfeit “church“ to steer people away from the true God, and into false worship, mimicking certain aspects of the faith, and introducing many things that Christ and his apostles never taught….Christendom was born.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Best not to put God in a box so to speak. He can do whatever he wishes. If the experience of Cornelius could happen, it can happen again .

The fact that it didn’t happen again, is an indication that it would not happen again in the future.

There is good reason why that happened the first time......God had provided evidence that gentiles were now invited into the Christian arrangement....it was a monumental change in the way God’s worshippers were approaching their preaching activities.
It is the only time recorded in the Bible where water baptism came second to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[saved by grace 101]

The fact that it didn’t happen again, is an indication that it would not happen again in the future.

You do not know that, it may not be recorded again in the bible, but every conversion experience in the first century is not written in the bible

 

[Doug]

Paul did not need to be one of the 12 i

If there was just one church then there was just 12 apostles. To be added to the twelve an apostle would have to have been with Christ since John's baptism. Paul is said to be an apostle. but how could he be in the one church if he wasnt qualified? He wasnt with CHRIST SINCE John's baptism

 

[lforrest]

There is one body according to Ephesians 4:4-6. And from the context I must conclude the text refers to the body of Christ, which is the Church.

 

[amigo de christo]

The church is the whole total of the faithful in Christ.

God is not found in buildings made by man. So,how could God be consigned to any one denomination?

What i say next does not bring me any joy to say so , but is dire necessary .
My friend many denominations have abandonded him
by means of a false love that came of the world but was called the LOVE OF GOD .
IF we truly desire to Learn and to know
what jesus OR JESUS we follow
THEN i highly suggest we open and read the bible
and see what the true JESUS said and also later his own apostels wrote .
Todays love will not correct this people of sin
But JESUS did , as well as did the apostels correct the church if any was in sin .
And as this false love grew , EVEN acceptance of sins began to arise up .
And now even unbelief is being accepted . WE have serious problems button .
IF WE LOVE THEM we would have warned them and not to have allowed sin upon them .
YE shall not hate your neighbor in your heart , you shall in any way CORRECT HIM and NOT ALLOW sin upon him .
Get this people back into the bible . YOU SEE how the early church did things .
SEE WHO they preached and see they also warned of the dire consequences to come upon those WHO failed
to BELEIVE ON HIM . And JESUS is not the minstir of sin . SO he wont be holding hundred dollar bills
or rainbows or any other sin . AND HE cannot LIE , so HE dont preach UNBELIEF .

 

[Doug]

There is one body according to Ephesians 4:4-6. And from the context I must conclude the text refers to the body of Christ, which is the Church.

Yes there is one church the body of Christ in this dispensation.
There was a kittle flock Jerusalem church that Christ started in his earthly ministry. They were offered the prophetic Davidic kingdom and reign with him a thousand years. This church was persecuted by Paul and scattered. Christ formed the body of Christ after Paul was converted. This church would inherit a heavenly kingdom.

 

[Wick Stick]

Here we will examine, that if indeed, there is only one church.

The first notion to dispel is, that scripture identifies there being only one church in existence.

There was a church ( a congregation) in the wilderness before Christ came that worshiped the Lord...........[Acts 7:38 KJV] 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
[Exodus 34:14 KJV] 14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

If this church is acknowledged, is it unimaginable that there could be others formed during other dispensations?

Jesus established his church...........[Matthew 16:18 KJV] 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.............Lord Jesus chose twelve disciples to be apostles............[Luke 6:13 KJV] 13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

[Acts 2:14 KJV] 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[Acts 2:41 KJV] 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls...........those that believed Peter were baptized, and were ADDED to them..............[Acts 2:47 KJV] 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved..........The Lord ADDED to them, the existing church, the church Jesus built during his time on earth. A new church was NOT formed at Pentecost. This church continued thru, and beyond the conversion of Paul.

This existing church, built by Jesus, was the church that Paul persecuted before his conversion. This was the church of God, the church at Jerusalem, the little flock........[Acts 8:1 KJV] 1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
[1Corinthians 15:9 KJV] 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
This church was never called the body of Christ.

Paul was saved and chosen by the Lord Jesus to be an apostle to the Gentiles...........[Romans 11:13 KJV] 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Peter and Paul had separate apostleship..............[Galatians 2:8 KJV] 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)..........Peter was apostle to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles. Peter and Paul were not apostles over the same church. Their was no animosity between Peter and Paul. Paul could never have been selected as an apostle to the church in Jerusalem because he didn't meet the requirements. To be an apostle with Peter and the twelve, he would have to have been with the other apostles during the entire time Jesus was on earth, beginning from the baptism of John until the ascension of Christ..........[Acts 1:21-22 KJV] 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Paul received revelations from the risen Christ Jesus............[Ephesians 3:3-4 KJV] 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)...............Among these revelations, Paul received knowledge of the church Jesus formed for this dispensation of grace. Christ revealed that the church in this dispensation was the body of Christ, and it's members are members of his body. Christ revealed offices and functions to be set in place in the body of Christ.............[1Corinthians 12:27-28 KJV] 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.........................Revealed was Christ as the head of the body............. [Colossians 1:18 KJV] 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence..............Nowhere was the church in Jerusalem, overseen by Peter and the apostles, referred to as being the body of Christ. Nowhere was it said that Jew and Gentile were one body in the church overseen by Peter. Only in the body of Christ was Jew and Gentile revealed to be reconciled in one body............... [Ephesians 2:16 KJV] 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Paul said that the body of Christ would sit in heavenly places..........[Ephesians 1:3 KJV] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
[Ephesians 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:..........Peter never spoke of himself, or his church, as sitting in heavenly places. Paul said that by the church, the body of Christ, the principalities and powers in heavenly places would know by the church, the body of Christ, the manifold wisdom of God..............[Ephesians 3:10 KJV] 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,..............this was not made known by Peter's church.

What was made known by the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom by Peter and the apostles was that their believing members, would become a holy nation and a kingdom of priests; they would reign with Christ in his earthly kingdom.................[Exodus 19:6 KJV] 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[Revelation 20:6 KJV] 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..............Only Israel was told they would be a kingdom of priests. Nowhere does Paul say the members of the body of Christ are, or will be made priests; this differentiates Peter's church from the body of Christ. Only Peter's church could have the expectation of being priests in the kingdom on earth.

More destruction of Scripture in the name of propping up your pet dotrine?

A major doctrine of the New Testament is UNITY - that we should be united as one. UNITY doesn't square with the idea of two churches.

Ephesians 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If there was just one church then there was just 12 apostles. To be added to the twelve an apostle would have to have been with Christ since John's baptism. Paul is said to be an apostle. but how could he be in the one church if he wasnt qualified? He wasnt with CHRIST SINCE John's baptism

The church was based on the 12, but not limited to them.
I think you have a very skewed idea of what an “apostle” is.....in Heb 3:1, Jesus is called an “apostle” by Paul.

Do you think Paul understood what an apostle was if he used that word to describe the Son of God?

I gave you the definition of the word...

Strongs defines this word “apostolos” as…

“a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders”…

So one could be an “apostle“ without being one of the 12....right?

If Paul was “called to be an apostle” as he said.....who called him? The same one who called the 12. They had the same teacher and the same message......Paul was used to take that message to the nations....as well as to the Jews. His education gave him avenues of service that the 12 couldn’t match.

The 12 were sent to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”....they were largely uneducated fishermen with whom these ‘lost ones’ could identify....they were of their own ilk.

Paul’s audience required someone who could stand before men of authority and education, because he was one of them. What is getting lost on you here? You don’t seem to understand Paul’s choosing or his mission.