ARE THEIR TWO CHURCHES OR JUST ONE?

[Doug]

Do you speak archaic English at home? Or in your everyday life.....? It’s a dead language. So much has changed in our language in over 300 years.....it’s not “our language” at all anymore.
For new Bible students it’s a nightmare.

How can so many able to understand the KJV

If you use Blue Letter Bible online its easy to look up words................an example............[2Th 2:7 KJV] 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way..............the only "archaic" word is letteth and Strongs defines it as hinder
The real problem is the other translations are mainly based on corrupt texts

 

[Doug]

Jesus was born and died a Jew...he was sent only to the Jews.....

He still taught to keep the law and Paul didnt The fact he was born a Jew doesnt negate the difference between Paul and Jesus

Here is another difference......Jesus commanded baptism Paul doesnt

 

[Doug]

Jesus taught that all Christians must prove faithful until death....Paul did not teach something different.

Before the dispensation revealed by Paul, for eternal life they had to believe on the name of Jesus, that he was Christ, the Son of God................[Jhn 20:31 KJV] 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name..........they couldnt lose eternal life, but they could lose the reward of their inheritance in the kingdom...............[Mat 25:21 KJV] 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord..........believing Isrel had to be faithful to enter the earthly kingdom

 

[Aunty Jane]

[Act 23:8 KJV] 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

The Pharisees did believe in the resurrection

Yes....both these sects disagreed...just like the churches of Christendom do, only on a larger scale.
The Pharisees believed in the ”resurrection”...which was a restoration of life....not a continuation of it.

The Sadducees didn’t believe in resurrection or even in angels.....

[Luk 16:22-23 KJV] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

It says rich man not Pharisee and it is about hell

Parables are symbolic...and this one was no exception......the Pharisees knew that Jesus aimed a lot of those illustrations at them. (Matt 21:5-6)

What was “Abraham’s bosom”?
Does it say that the beggar was taken to “heaven”? Or did the angels carry him off to a better place?
“Abraham’s bosom” reflects a place close to the heart. The “bosom” (chest) was a position of intimacy, sometimes referring to the position at a meal where those reclining were on couches around a table. The one in closest proximity to the host was the one who was said to be in the “bosom” position.....for more intimate conversation.

What is this “hell” that Jesus spoke about? Is it “Sheol”?...“hades”?....”Gehenna”?....”the lake of fire”?
Where did Jews believe the dead actually were? (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Notice that it was the “bosom of Abraham”, not God. Why was that significant? Because Abraham alone is called in the Bible, “God’s friend”.....(James 2:23) Those who now accepted Christ were considered to be God’s people....no longer lost or remote from their God, but drawn to him through Christ. (John 6:44; 65)

Does it say that the rich man went to “hell”?
NO! It says that he died and was “buried”....the place where Jews believed all the dead ended up.
The dead are not conscious, so that parable was not anything to do with the pagan notion of an immortal soul experiencing any kind of torment after death.

The Pharisees as well as the Sadducees were very much alive in their torment at Jesus preaching....his condemnation of them was scathing! (Matt 23)

 

[Aunty Jane]

He still taught to keep the law and Paul didnt The fact he was born a Jew doesnt negate the difference between Paul and Jesus

Here is another difference......Jesus commanded baptism Paul doesnt

What do we learn from Paul’s conversion?
Acts 9:17-18...
“And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.” (NKJV)

If baptism was not necessary, then why was Paul baptized? This was after Christ’s death and resurrection.
All had to be baptized in water first....only then would they receive the Holy Spirit.

In his conversation with Nicodemus....
“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (NKJV)

There were two baptisms in the first century...John’s.....for repentance over sins relating to the Law, “preparing the way” for repentant ones to receive Jesus as the “Christ” to teach them what the Pharisees never did.....and all those ones who accepted Jesus, had to be baptized again in his name.

Jesus’ final command to his apostles before his ascension, was recorded in Matt 28:18-20...

“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NKJV)

If baptism was unnecessary, why did Jesus command it?....”to the end of the age”?
And what did it mean to do so “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”?
Initially, they only had to be baptized in Jesus’ name.

What role had each of these played in the disciple’s journey to baptism?
Why was Jesus himself baptized? Is it’s significance lost on you?

What did water baptism symbolise?

Before the dispensation revealed by Paul, for eternal life they had to believe on the name of Jesus, that he was Christ, the Son of God................[Jhn 20:31 KJV] 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name..........they couldnt lose eternal life, but they could lose the reward of their inheritance in the kingdom...............[Mat 25:21 KJV] 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord..........believing Isrel had to be faithful to enter the earthly kingdom

Do these verses mean what you imply here, or are you assuming a lot?

“that believing ye might have life through his name”..........
“they couldnt lose eternal life, but they could lose the reward of their inheritance in the kingdom.”
What on earth does that mean?

What is this “dispensation revealed by Paul”? Was it a different “dispensation” to what Jesus taught?

Is this OSAS? Something never taught in any passage do Scripture?

 

[Aunty Jane]

How can so many able to understand the KJV

If you use Blue Letter Bible online its easy to look up words................an example............[2Th 2:7 KJV] 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way..............the only "archaic" word is letteth and Strongs defines it as hinder
The real problem is the other translations are mainly based on corrupt texts

Why do you defend such an outdated translation, as if God himself wrote it in archaic English?

What is the point of a translation if one has to learn another language to understand it?
It is the most difficult translation for any new Bible student to comprehend.

The KJVO crowd are indoctrinated to accept it as somehow the only reliable translation....but in these days it is so outdated and unreliable that it beggars belief that it is so hotly defended by those who are ignorant of the better translations available for comparison.

A translation is just that....and the original languages are better understood over time, so linguistics is constantly improving.....which is why revisions are made....even the KJV has been revised....but you knew that, right?

 

[Doug]

The Pharisees believed in the ”resurrection”...which was a restoration of life....not a continuation of it.

What do you mean? Resurrection is only temporary? what scripture are you referring to

Scripture speaks of having immortality................
[1Co 15:53-54 KJV] 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[2Ti 1:10 KJV] 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[Doug]

What was “Abraham’s bosom”

No one went to heaven in until this dispensation. The church the body of Christ inherits the heavenly places

Abraham's bosom is in the heart of the earth and has two sections just as said............[Mat 12:40 KJV] 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth...........it is a physical literal place that Jesus said he was going to after his death.

 

[Doug]

Does it say that the rich man went to “hell”?
NO! It says that he died and was “buried”....the place where Jews believed all the dead ended up.

It goes on to say in v23 that after he was buried he was in hell and could see (you have to be alive to see).............. [Luk 16:22-23 KJV] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

[Ecc 1:9 KJV] 9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun...........................under the sun is said about 30 times. The book is talking about the meaning of life on earth.
The same can be said about this passage....................[Ecc 9:5-6 KJV] 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun...............the dead know nothing as do the living on earth under the sun

 

[Taken]

ARE THEIR TWO CHURCHES OR JUST ONE?

First, I would not limit the number of churches.

Secondly, I would describe a church, IS an establishment OF a group of committed members In agreement of One Same Doctrine.

God revealed… there ARE many “gods”.
God revealed… He is God above all other gods.

I see a parallel of Gods revealing, to individuals WHO ARE “committed church members in agreement” to ONE church Doctrine or another.

Thus I see, the “individual’s membership in Christs Church ( Jesus simply call “my Church”), being a confessed agreement between one individual and Christ Jesus’ Doctrine” …
* regardless of Where the individual geographically lives,
* regardless of Where the individual worships the God above all other gods,
* regardless of Secular name tags under the Guise of religion,
* regardless of man devised rituals, NOT in conflict with Christ Jesus’ Doctrine…

IS: the boundary, limit, for an individual to examine their own “standing”…
as well as open ears, eyes and observe an others “standing” …
“Being either Within or Without Agreement OF Christ Jesus Fixed Objective Doctrinal Principles and Standards.”

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Doug]

If baptism was not necessary, then why was Paul baptized?

This occurred right after his conversion. Jews were commanded to be water baptized and Paul and Ananias were Jews. Paul received the Holy Ghost when Ananias laid hands on him. It doesnt say anything in detail about why he was baptized but Paul also was purified according to the law (Acts 21:23) he circumcised Timothy and he baptized some. There is no record he continued to baptize and said he was not sent to baptize

 

[Doug]

“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NKJV)

If baptism was unnecessary, why did Jesus command it?....”to the end of the age”?
And what did it mean to do so “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”?
Initially, they only had to be baptized in Jesus’ name.

It doesnt say to continue baptizing til the end. The gospel of the kingdom will once again be preached. Matthew 28:19-20 will be fulfilled in the tribulation. This wasnt commanded for us to fulfill it was commanded the twelve apostles

 

[Doug]

Why was Jesus himself baptized? Is it’s significance lost on you?

Jesus said it was to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus was being identified with Israel. Israel had to confess their sins and be water baptized for the remission of their sins. Jesus took away their sins in water baptism "the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world"

 

[Doug]

“that believing ye might have life through his name”..........
“they couldnt lose eternal life, but they could lose the reward of their inheritance in the kingdom.”
What on earth does that mean?

I dont know how else to say it. For Israel to have eternal life they had only to believe on his name. The cross wasnt being preached for salvation..............[Jhn 3:18 KJV] 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[Act 8:37 KJV] 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
[1Jo 5:13 KJV] 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

They couldnt lose their salvation according to Jesus...........[Jhn 5:24 KJV] 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

They could lose entrance and authority in the earthly kingdom..................[Mat 8:11-12 KJV] 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Doug]

What is this “dispensation revealed by Paul”? Was it a different “dispensation” to what Jesus taught?

Is this OSAS? Something never taught in any passage do Scripture?

[Eph 3:2 KJV] 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:...........In this dispensation we are saved thru faith in his blood. Both Jew and Gentile can be saved by faith apart from Israel, without works, without the law, and without covenant

Yes we cant lose our salvation either.
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:...........being justified we have it and cant become unjust
[Rom 4:22, 24 KJV] 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. ... 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;............we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and cant become unrighteous (imputed means put to our account)

 

[Doug]

Why do you defend such an outdated translation, as if God himself wrote it in archaic English?

What is the point of a translation if one has to learn another language to understand it?
It is the most difficult translation for any new Bible student to comprehend.

The KJVO crowd are indoctrinated to accept it as somehow the only reliable translation....but in these days it is so outdated and unreliable that it beggars belief that it is so hotly defended by those who are ignorant of the better translations available for comparison.

A translation is just that....and the original languages are better understood over time, so linguistics is constantly improving.....which is why revisions are made....even the KJV has been revised....but you knew that, right?

Another language? The majority of verses can easily be read as they are the same words we use today.

The problem is as I said the text used Here is one example
[Mat 5:22 KJV] 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Now look closely at these other translations:
[Mat 5:22 NIV] 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

[Mat 5:22 ESV] 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

[Mat 5:22 NASB20] 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty [enough to go] into the fiery hell.

[Mat 5:22 RSV] 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

ALL OF THEM remove "without a cause"

Now look at these verses
[Mar 3:5 KJV] 5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched [it] out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
[Jhn 2:15 KJV] 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Jesus is angry isn't he? So these translations make Jesus a sinner!
Jesus was angry, but not without cause

 

[Aunty Jane]

It doesnt say to continue baptizing til the end. The gospel of the kingdom will once again be preached. Matthew 28:19-20 will be fulfilled in the tribulation. This wasnt commanded for us to fulfill it was commanded the twelve apostles

Well, since the apostles all died, how was it only an instruction to them? It was even Paul who told the disciples to “preach the word”...urgently in all seasons.

Paul wrote....to his fellow ministers....
“I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2 Tim 2:1-5 NKJV)

All Christians are ministers of the word....under obligation to share the message of the Kingdom with whoever will listen.

To all who stand before God as disciples of his son, we are told to “preach the word”, obeying Jesus’ command in Matt 28:19-20. It is a command for all Christians....those who think it doesn’t apply to them...think again.

Rev 22:17....we have a message of salvation that needs to be sounded out in the whole world, whether they want to hear it or not....it is an invitation from God, with the aid of his powerful spirit, and from Jesus Christ and his bride.....
“And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” (NKJV)

Romans 10:13-15.....they cannot hear unless there is someone to preach....

 

[Ezra]

Well, since the apostles all died, how was it only an instruction to them? It was even Paul who told the disciples to “preach the word”...urgently in all seasons.

Paul wrote....to his fellow ministers....
“I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2 Tim 2:1-5 NKJV)

All Christians are ministers of the word....under obligation to share the message of the Kingdom with whoever will listen.

To all who stand before God as disciples of his son, we are told to “preach the word”, obeying Jesus’ command in Matt 28:19-20. It is a command for all Christians....those who think it doesn’t apply to them...think again.

Rev 22:17....we have a message of salvation that needs to be sounded out in the whole world, whether they want to hear it or not....it is an invitation from God, with the aid of his powerful spirit, and from Jesus Christ and his bride.....
“And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” (NKJV)

Romans 10:13-15.....they cannot hear unless there is someone to preach....

yes this is correct

 

[Doug]

Well, since the apostles all died, how was it only an instruction to them?

The kingdom was still being offered after his resurrection. If Israel received Christ they would have gone thru the tribulation at that time and entered the kingdom

 

[Doug]

Paul who told the disciples to “preach the word”...urgently in all seasons.

To preach the word of Paul's gospel and doctrine