The Case for Eternal Security

[St. SteVen]

Do you believe people who are removed from Christ are still saved?

What does that mean "removed from Christ"?
How is that even possible?

The pruning happens due to a lack of fruit.
Consequences are appropriate, but even pruned vines are a part of the original vine.
The burning is a test of works.

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[St. SteVen]

Fruitless “branches” that are in Christ are removed from Christ.


Do you believe people who are removed from Christ are still saved?

Fruitless branches are removed from the fruit bearing vine.
That doesn't mean they are removed from Christ.
They are set aside for correction. Burning = correction.

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[JLB]

Fruitless branches are removed from the fruit bearing vine.
That doesn't mean they are removed from Christ.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:2


People who are in Christ, are removed from Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:2


People who are in Christ, are removed from Christ.

Rubbish!
Those in Christ are a new creation.
Nothing can undo that.

Why are you pushing a works religion?

 

[JLB]

Rubbish!

Well when you refer to the teaching of Jesus Christ as Rubbish, then we all know where you stand.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:2


People who are in Christ, that are removed from Christ by God the Father, no,longer have eternal life.


In Christ = eternal life

Removed from Christ = eternal death

 

[St. SteVen]

Well when you refer to the teaching of Jesus Christ as Rubbish, then we all know where you stand.

To be clear, it is your post that was rubbish.
You are attempting to play the God card to win the argument.

Playing the "God card" to end the discussion. - Misuse of God's name?

"My doctrinal opinion is true; you're doctrinal opinion is false." - Got it? Say what? Or worse... "Who should I believe, you, or the Word of God?" (in reference to a man-made doctrinal opinion) Basically, playing the "God card" to win a doctrinal argument. "How will you top that?" Why do...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[JLB]

To be clear, it is your post that was rubbish.
You are attempting to play the God card to win the argument.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2


People who are in Christ, are removed from Christ.



These are the words of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

People who are in Christ, are removed from Christ.



These are the words of Christ.

That's not what He said.

 

[Button]

On my view opposition to eternal security,eternal salvation, is opposing the Gospel and sacrifice of Jesus.

He said, of all the father gives him he will lose none.

Thinking we can lose salvation by our doing is,in my view, denying what Jesus taught. And died to secure for us eternally. Especially when we did nothing to secure our place in God's grace. God gives and we can throw it back in his face if we choose to?
What's that say about the promise of losing none of us,if that were possible?

Besides,denying our salvation is eternal sounds like the Old testament way of repenting of sin with no guarantee of eternal life with God after.
Which is why Jesus arrived so to change that in the first place.

 

[Button]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2

I think that's talking about those who claim to be Christian but are not.

Like those who journeyed with Jesus but then left when they couldn't handle his teachings anymore.

Jesus said they went out from him,us,because they were not one with us.

People who are in Christ, are removed from Christ.

That's not what Jesus said.

These are the words of Christ.

Not exactly

 

[JLB]

I think that's talking about those who claim to be Christian but are not.

‘It’s referring to those who are “in Him”.

Those who are “in Him” are Christians.

Those who are not in Him are lost.

 

[JLB]

That's not what Jesus said.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:2


Here we have branches that are in Him.


Do you believe a person that is in Christ is saved?

 

[JLB]

Jesus said they went out from him,us,because they were not one with us.

‘Have you ever left a church?

 

[mailmandan]

I think that's talking about those who claim to be Christian but are not.

Like those who journeyed with Jesus but then left when they couldn't handle his teachings anymore.

Exactly. In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.