Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[gpresdo]

The "basic Christian tenets" are to love our Heavenly Father who created us and demonstrate that love by doing his will, following Christ, and loving one another.

That's it.

It's not necessary to understand or believe in "the trinity" in order to be a faithful follower of Christ.

One must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian. That is a basic tenet of a Christian.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Got bad news . if your bible cometh of the JW , it aint gleaning its in part been deceiving .
just a friendly reminder to us all .

I guess that is what you’ve heard Amigo...have you any examples where we have mistranslated anything?
Please present your research.....

Be careful about what you hear....but have not really investigated....that could be the deception you are warning others about....never pass on gossip. Check your facts first.

In case you haven’t noticed, I rarely use the NWT on this site for that very reason...I use popular translations like the ESV or the NASB....I will use Christendom’s own reference works to show up their errors.
It packs more of a punch that way.....

 

[Beebster]

Logos means MORE than than the word of God.
If you don't accept it, fine.

"Logos" has the same meaning as "rhema;" word.

The only difference is theologians have turned the the word logos into an idol.

I believe you're conflating when God SPEAKS
and His word as Logos, which is a bit more - but we're repeating.

Here Jesus means the words as in communication.
Jesus is communicating what He wants us to know about the Father and what the Father is telling Him
to SPEAK, as in communicate.

Jesus spoke the Word of God. Much more than communication.

Everything that came out of Jesus' mouth was the Word of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

One must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian. That is a basic tenet of a Christian.

Actually it’s a basic tenet of Christendom.....not Christianity. Who said that they are the same?

I cannot find a single quote from either Jesus or his Father stating that they are equal parts of the same God. I can find many verses that say that they are not.
In fact I cannot even find a single verse that says that the Holy Spirit is God.
I can see misunderstood and mistranslated verses that might imply something to that effect, but there isn’t a single categorical or unequivocal statement about the trinity in the whole Bible.

If there was, this debate would not still be raging some 2000 years later...

 

[Beebster]

MEN is all we have to go by Beepster.

No, we have Jesus Christ, you know the Word of God

MEN understood that Jesus was God and had to define this and create the term/word Trinity.

Those men had no clue.

MEN knew Jesus and taught us about Him.

Very few and with inspiraration from Holy Spirit.

MEN wrote the bible and
MEN decided what the canon would be.

Also inspired.

 

[Beebster]

Yes sir.
God's word creates.
NOT the spoken word.

You're half right:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

 

[Beebster]

I TEACH nothing on here.
I post about the Christian religion and basically because many twist it to mean what they want it to mean.

Now you're just being dishonest.

And
HOW would it even be possible to teach something a person does not understand??

That's rich.
Look around this forum.
And how many denominations are there? And why?

Sir,,,there are conditions to being saved.
Conditions you most probably do not accept.

That's just rude.

God desires all to be saved...
but not all will.
Why?

This is why:

God desires all to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. (Job 23:13)

Well there you have it; when God desires something he does it.
Really, why would anyone think otherwise?

1 Timothy 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.

Commanding and teaching otherwise would not be very obedient.

There is a condition:

John 3:16
16 “For God [a]so loved the world, that He gave His [b]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

We went over that in post # 798. All will learn righteousness, bow and confess.

 

[Beebster]

The prohibition caused them no distress however, because there were many trees in the garden laden with delicious fruit....they were not deprived of anything. They would not have even thought about breaking God’s command if the devil had not lied to the woman and suggested that God was withholding something that they had a right to know.....Free will was part of being made in God’s image.

Cause is a force.

And perfect beings do not make mistakes....they make choices. Both chose badly....and the consequences were dire.

They were not perfect.

Free will is the right of choice....it was to be a wonderful gift in their everyday life because we make choices all the time without thinking to much about them, until it’s a difficult one. But then we weigh up the options and make a choice hoping it’s the right one. Informed choice is the only way to make the right one, considering all the options....the pros and cons.

Well, yeah we can make choices but they are not free from cause.

It was because she had free will.
If the devil had not tempted her, she would not have even considered taking the fruit. But she believed the lie.....and her conduct separated her from God.....when Adam saw what she had done...he then had two choices...to reprimand her and lose her....or join her and die with her?

Temptation is another force.

The devil can’t force us to do anything against our will....all he can do is bait a trap and wait.....and that is what he did....knowing that Adam had waited a long time for a mate of his own, he targeted the woman first, if he could get her to disobey, then the bait was set to trap the man. It worked!

How did he get them to disobey if they were, as you say, perfect?

The devil had what he wanted.

No, I think God got what he wanted.

 

[Beebster]

Beebster said:
Chapter and verse please. Don't bother though, you won't find it.
The scriptural fact is, you must die in order to be saved.

I won't find it?
I believe in orthodox christianity.
I can find support for everything I state on this forum.

IT IS TOO LATE FOR SALVATION AFTER DEATH.
Here's your verse:

Hebrews 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is [r]appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

We are all judged and must all die first.
That does not prove your point at all.

Luke 15:9-31
19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away * and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house -
28 for I have five brothers -in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "


I posted all of it because there is much to be learned here:

1. Those dead were already separated and had already been judged.
Some were in torment and some were in Abraham's bossom.

2. Verse 25 speaks of the previous life---when the choice was still available to both Lazarus and the rich man.

3. Verse 28 the tormented man wanted his brothers, that were still alive to be WARNED about this judgment...
but he was told that they would not believe.

Which means, that one must believe BEFORE he dies.

No ma'am.
First of all that is a parable.
Yes it is true but not literally true.

Secondly, and to prove a point, you said you didn't teach on this forum. Well, sounds like you're trying to teach me here.

What is Abraham's bosom?
Who s Lazarus?

That parable has to do with this:

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. {Luk 13:29:30}

 

[Aunty Jane]

Cause is a force.

No one said it was....we have a will that is God given.....it drives us to achieve whatever we want to do....
There is no force...but temptation is something that can drive us in the wrong direction....sometimes against our better judgment.

They were not perfect.

They were sinless until they chose to sin...disobedience was sin...the penalty was death.

”Perfect” in the biblical sense, means that something is exactly what it is designed to be and as far as humanity was concerned, as God’s last important creation, they were included in what God declared to be “very good”.
For a Creator who does not create defective things, humanity was all that he wanted them to be.

Well, yeah we can make choices but they are not free from cause.

Cause or reason? There is a difference. Humans rarely do anything for no reason, even if there is no pressing cause or something to force them to make a certain decision.

Temptation is another force.

Temptation is not something that needs to be acted upon....that is a choice. Free will means we have choices.

How did he get them to disobey if they were, as you say, perfect?

Good grief man....free will. The devil made the woman a better offer....they both made a choice....it was rhe wrong one.
Satan made a choice to tempt the woman....because he had free will.
Why on earth would the devil tempt Jesus if there was no possibility of him abusing his free will?

The human Jesus was sinless like Adam was when he was created.

No, I think God got what he wanted.

How on earth could what resulted from Adam’s disobedience, be what God wanted? You’ve lost me....

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace and Greetings gpresdo,

Now if we could only make everyone what begotten means.
But, alas, we prefer to obey our human teachers instead of the word of God.
Begotten: To come forth from,,,To be generated from,,, (biblical language)

Yes, it would be beneficial to understand "what begotten means". I have yet to see an adequate explanation by Trinitarians, and there have been a number of different explanations. Your definition seems reasonable, but how and when do you apply this to Jesus?

One must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian.

That is not the Bible definition of "Christian".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marvelloustime]

Like this .
In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD
and the Word was GOD
and the word became flesh . For HOLY GHOST shall overshadow thee
Therefore he will be called THE SON OF GOD . like that .
Exactly .
And now in HIM have we all HOPE . To the trenches one and all .

@amigo de christo

 

[Lambano]

Begotten: To come forth from,,,To be generated from,,,
(biblical language)

Unfortunately, to use the biblical language that the Son comes forth from the Father implies if not a temporal but a logical precedence of the Father before the Son. This contradicts co-eternality (and possibly co-equality, though like begats like), and this is the heresy of Arius. "There was a time when He was not."

 

[GodsGrace]

Unfortunately, to use the biblical language that the Son comes forth from the Father implies if not a temporal but a logical precedence of the Father before the Son. This contradicts co-eternality (and possibly co-equality, though like begats like), and is the heresy of Arius. "There was a time when He was not."

If you "come forth" from something...
you were always a part of that something.
No beginning.

Anyway, in biblical language BEGOTTEN means unique, one of a kind.

But see what it means in a dictionary:
: brought into existence by or as if by a parent

Which is why I dislike this word and why I said that this conundrum only happens with the English language.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure what gave you that idea.
Is it because I said words are spirit?

No, that is not the reason.

That is the difference between being carnal minded and spiritually minded.

No you can't create physical things when you speak, but you can create spiritual things.

God's Word can create anything.
I believe we're discussing God here.

Love, joy, happiness, anger, envy and jealousy just to name a few.

That is why we will answer for our words.

Our words.
Which are JUST WORDS.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Logos" has the same meaning as "rhema;" word.

The only difference is theologians have turned the the word logos into an idol.

You may believe what you wish.

I don't like to spend a lot of time on "words".

The ORIGINAL word used was LOGOS.
It had to be changed to English.
Thus: WORD

Jesus spoke the Word of God. Much more than communication.

Everything that came out of Jesus' mouth was the Word of God.

Really?
Oh my.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we have Jesus Christ, you know the Word of God

You are trusting MEN to believe in Jesus.
Think it over.
Were the Apostles men?

Those men had no clue.

The Apostles had no clue?
Peter had no clue.
Thomas had no clue.

Looks like we're not in very good hands.

Very few and with inspiraration from Holy Spirit.

Also inspired.

Maybe they weren't inspired?
They didn't know things...
they misunderstood Jesus.
Wow.

 

[Lambano]

If you "come forth" from something...
you were always a part of that something.
No beginning.

Anyway, in biblical language BEGOTTEN means unique, one of a kind.

But see what it means in a dictionary:
: brought into existence by or as if by a parent

Which is why I dislike this word and why I said that this conundrum only happens with the English language.

"Begat" (Greek gennao) is used to describe childbirth. And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be mighty upon the earth. (1 Chronicles 1:10. Fathers precede sons.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're half right:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Looks like I'm 100% right.

I said God's word creates.
And YOU posted Genesis 1:3
LET THERE BE LIGHT AND THERE WAS LIGHT.

Thanks!

 

[Wrangler]

I do not have an academic background

Says the most strict academic poster at CyB.

And I don’t mean that as a compliment. The trouble with most academics is they can’t answer simple questions, simply.

It may be easier to explain it in 3 hours. Read lazier. Read self-centered. Read pedantic. Read no understanding of audience. It’s axiomatic that if one cannot explain something in simple terms, they don’t really understand it.

Wow! Who knew you could condense such a large volume of work by having someone else read it for you, and then tell you what each book said, in 10 words or less.....?

Who knew? Perhaps billions of people know this regarding Cliff Notes.

Pastor Steve at Discover Church summarized the whole Bible in 2 words.

How do you know that their take and interpretation is the correct one?

Ye of little faith.

Cliff notes is a study guide. It’s not a replacement for reading source material. We both know JW’s are guilty of turning knowledge into an IDOL.

My grandmother used to tell me to ‘go to church.’ 3 words.