The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul and Peter both wrote about mass destruction occurring at the coming of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Paul did not specify the scope of the "sudden destruction" that he wrote about here, but did indicate that it would be such that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". Peter, however, did specify the scope of the destruction and made it clear that it will be global and come upon the entire earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Both Paul and Peter indicate that it's important for us to "not sleep, as others do" (those who are in spiritual darkness), but we need to instead "watch and be sober" by way of "putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation" and we need to be the kind of people who take part "in holy conduct and godliness" while we are "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God".

So, Paul and Peter are clearly referring to the same event in these passages and both warn believers to be careful about making sure to be the kind of people who are in the spiritual light instead of the darkness. Why do they warn their readers about that? Because they don't want any of their readers to experience the "sudden destruction" by fire that will come upon the earth from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape".

I have seen some Premils try to claim that the fiery destruction of the heavens, elements and the earth doesn't occur until 1,000+ years after Christ returns. But, if that was the case, why did Peter tell his readers "since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God"? It would make no sense for him to say that if the fiery destruction he described couldn't possibly occur in the lifetimes of his readers, which would be the case if it occurred 1,000+ years after Christ returns. It only makes sense that he, like Paul, was encouraging his readers to be ready for the day of the Lord so that they would not be among those who will experience "sudden destruction" by fire that none in spiritual darkness will escape. As Paul said, we (believers) are not appointed to God's wrath, so both Paul and Peter encouraged believers to stay strong in the faith so that if Jesus comes in our lifetimes, we will be ready and not face His wrath of "sudden destruction" by fire upon the earth on the day He comes "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8). Instead, we will be changed to put on bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:50-54) and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17) on that day.

Some Premils understand that what I'm saying in this post is true in terms of the things described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 being fulfilled when Christ returns. But, instead of acknowledging that the fiery destruction Peter describes is the same as the "sudden destruction" that Paul mentions in relation to the day of the Lord, they spiritualize the passage instead and claim that it's not talking about literal fire physically burning up the earth. But, in order to be consistent, they should believe that the "sudden destruction" that Paul references in relation to the day of the Lord is not literal, physical destruction as well, but they don't. They somehow make the destruction that Peter describes in relation to the day of the Lord different than the "sudden destruction" that Paul references in relation to the day of the Lord, which makes no sense.

What Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39 where He said that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly with no one knowing the day or hour that will occur while proceeding to point out that all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day and then saying "so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". So, 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up perfectly with Matthew 24:35-39 with both describing Jesus coming unexpectedly while bringing destruction upon the heavens and the earth, causing them to "pass away" in favor of the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:13). With that being the case, it's no wonder that Paul said unbelievers "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day Christ comes as a thief in the night. They can't escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

 

[WPM]

Paul and Peter both wrote about mass destruction occurring at the coming of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Paul did not specify the scope of the "sudden destruction" that he wrote about here, but did indicate that it would be such that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". Peter, however, did specify the scope of the destruction and made it clear that it will be global and come upon the entire earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Both Paul and Peter indicate that it's important for us to "not sleep, as others do" (those who are in spiritual darkness), but we need to instead "watch and be sober" by way of "putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation" and we need to be the kind of people who take part "in holy conduct and godliness" while we are "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God".

So, Paul and Peter are clearly referring to the same event in these passages and both warn believers to be careful about making sure to be the kind of people who are in the spiritual light instead of the darkness. Why do they warn their readers about that? Because they won't want any of their readers to experience the "sudden destruction" by fire that will come upon the earth from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape".

I have seen some Premils try to claim that the fiery destruction of the heavens, elements and the earth doesn't occur until 1,000+ years after Christ returns. But, if that was the case, why did Peter tell his readers "since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God"? It would make no sense for him to say that if the fiery destruction he described couldn't possibly occur in the lifetimes of his readers, which would be the case if it occurred 1,000+ years after Christ returns. It only makes sense that he, like Paul, was encouraging his readers to be ready for the day of the Lord so that they would not be among those who will experience "sudden destruction" by fire that none in spiritual darkness will escape. As Paul said, we (believers) are not appointed to God's wrath, so both Paul and Peter encouraged believers to stay strong in the faith so that if Jesus comes in our lifetimes, we will be ready and not face His wrath of "sudden destruction" by fire upon the earth on the day He comes "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8). Instead, we will be changed to put on bodily immortality (1 Cor 15:50-54) and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17) on that day.

Some Premils understand that what I'm saying in this post is true in terms of the things described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 being fulfilled when Christ returns. But, instead of acknowledging that the fiery destruction Peter describes is the same as the "sudden destruction" that Paul mentions in relation to the day of the Lord, they spiritualize the passage instead and claim that it's not talking about literal fire physically burning up the earth. But, in order to be consistent, they should believe that the "sudden destruction" that Paul references in relation to the day of the Lord is not literal, physical destruction as well, but they don't. They somehow make the destruction that Peter describes in relation to the day of the Lord different than the "sudden destruction" that Paul references in relation to the day of the Lord, which makes no sense.

What Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39 where He said that heaven and earth will pass away unexpectedly with no one knowing the day or hour that will occur while proceeding to point out that all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day and then saying "so also will the coming of the Son of Man be". So, 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up perfectly with Matthew 24:35-39 with both describing Jesus coming unexpectedly while bringing destruction upon the heavens and the earth, causing them to "pass away" in favor of the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming (2 Peter 3:13). With that being the case, it's no wonder that Paul said unbelievers "shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur on the day Christ comes as a thief in the night. They can't escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

Very watertight. Premils have to spiritualize these away because they forbid Premil.

 

[Truth7t7]

Very watertight. Premils have to spiritualize these away because they forbid Premil.

Just like reformed theology symbolizes the literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem as a literal world watches as seen in the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 below

Reformed theology in a fairy tale false teaching claims the (Two Witnesses) seen below represent the Old and New Testaments (Symbolically)?

Now That's A Bunch Of Malarkey!

Revelation 11:6-11KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

[covenantee]

Just like reformed theology symbolizes the literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem as a literal world watches as seen in the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 below

Reformed theology in a fairy tale false teaching claims the (Two Witnesses) seen below represent the Old and New testaments (Symbolically)?

Now That's A Bunch Of Malarkey!

Revelation 11:6-11KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Just like psychotic gnostics believe that Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just like reformed theology symbolizes the literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem as a literal world watches as seen in the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 below

Reformed theology in a fairy tale false teaching claims the (Two Witnesses) seen below represent the Old and New Testaments (Symbolically)?

Now That's A Bunch Of Malarkey!

Revelation 11:6-11KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

The purpose of this thread is to support Amil and refute Premil, but here you are, an Amil, trying to stir up trouble by bringing up unrelated topics. You are a little child who needs to grow up.

Revelation 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

So, you think literal fire will literally come out of the mouths of these two supposed individual witnesses, right? And they will literally kill any of their enemies who get in their way by literally breathing fire on them? So, when Jesus taught His followers to love our enemies, the two witnesses will defy Jesus's command and say the heck with that and will hate their enemies and kill them instead? LOL!

 

[Truth7t7]

You are a little child who needs to grow up.

Your the little child, the "Two Witnesses" will be literal prophets that return, they will have literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem as a literal world watches in celebration, they will bring literal plagues upon this earth

Reformed theologies claim that this represents the Old and New Testament, is 100% Malarkey!

Reformed theology in a fairy tale false teaching claims the (Two Witnesses) seen below represent the Old and New Testaments (Symbolically)?

Now That's A Bunch Of Malarkey!

Revelation 11:6-11KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

[jeffweeder]

Paul and Peter both wrote about mass destruction occurring at the coming of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night.

I am not surprised because Jesus taught them well.


Matt 24
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.


35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.


Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

 

[covenantee]

Your the little child, the "Two Witnesses" will be literal prophets that return, they will have literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem as a literal world watches in celebrati
Aon, they will bring literal plagues upon this earth

Reformed theologies claim that this represents the Old and New Testament, is 100% Malarkey!

Reformed theology in a fairy tale false teaching claims the (Two Witnesses) seen below represent the Old and New Testaments (Symbolically)?

Now That's A Bunch Of Malarkey!

Revelation 11:6-11KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Here's the 100% malarkey fairy tale false foolish fantasy fable teaching that you believe.

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 

[Zao is life]

Peter, however, did specify the scope of the destruction and made it clear that it will be global and come upon the entire earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

"But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11

The above is way more important to this below.

There is no other passage referring to the Day of the LORD and men being judged by fire that has been translated into English in such a way as to have many believe it's talking about the judgment and destruction of the earth and the sky, rather than of the rudiments and principles of this world and ungodly men and their works.

The topic is the return of Christ and the judgment of ungodly men. That's also the context of what Peter wrote concerning the rudiments and principles (elements) of this world and the works of ungodly men being burned up with fire when Christ returns.

All the other passages speaking of the same time are talking only about ungodly men being destroyed with fire - without saying anything about the planet. For example:

"And then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10).

Those "who shall be punished" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is referring to the same godless men to whom Peter was referring in 2 Peter 3:7 - which is the context of what Peter was saying in the passage before he got to verse 10.

Your argument goes only according to the English translation of the text - not according to what the text of 2 Peter 3:10-12 actually says before it's translated and garbled in the translation.

The elements mentioned are referring to the principles and rudiments of this world, and the works mentioned are referring to the works of darkness and of men, and the dissolving mentioned is referring to what was bound up being loosed (those very things). The passing away mentioned is referring to the heaven/s coming near or passing by or passing close-by (as will occur when Christ comes).

Peter writes what he does in 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the context of talking about the judgment of ungodly men in 2 Peter 3:7 (not the judgment of the planet). The context is what he was talking / writing about just prior to the statements which you have isolated from the passage (let alone from the rest of the New Testament).

The above can also be plainly seen in the scriptures quoted by :

Matthew 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

Indeed the current order will pass, but Jesus was not saying that actual heavens and planet earth shall pass away. He was talking about this below, saying that even if or though heaven and earth (the current order) should pass away, His WORDS will not pass away:

Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin],

42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am not surprised because Jesus taught them well.


Matt 24
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.


35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.


Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

Luke 17:29-30KJ V
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your the little child, the "Two Witnesses" will be literal prophets that return, they will have literal bodies that die and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem as a literal world watches in celebration, they will bring literal plagues upon this earth

So, you believe that they will literally breathe fire out of their mouths to kill their enemies despite Jesus commanding His followers to love our enemies? Yes or no? It's not a hard question.

Reformed theologies claim that this represents the Old and New Testament, is 100% Malarkey!

That isn't my view of the two witnesses, so stop wasting your time making strawman arguments. You're always trying to lump me in with other teachings, which shows again how childish you are. My view is that the two witnesses represent the church because they are represented as two olive trees. If you read Romans 11 you can see that branches from the wild olive tree, representing Gentile believers, were grafted in with the natural branches of the good olive tree, which represent Israelite believers. Together, as one body, Jew and Gentile believers who belong to Christ witness and preach the gospel throughout the world. That is what the two witnesses symbolically represent. But, because of your hyper-literalism, you can't discern that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1 Thessalonians 5:8-11

The above is way more important to this below.

There is no other passage referring to the Day of the LORD and men being judged by fire that has been translated into English in such a way as to have many believe it's talking about the judgment and destruction of the earth and the sky, rather than of the rudiments and principles of this world and ungodly men and their works.

The topic is the return of Christ and the judgment of ungodly men. That's also the context of what Peter wrote concerning the rudiments and principles (elements) of this world and the works of ungodly men being burned up with fire when Christ returns.

All the other passages speaking of the same time are talking only about ungodly men being destroyed with fire - without saying anything about the planet. For example:

"And then shall that lawless one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10).

Those "who shall be punished" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is referring to the same godless men to whom Peter was referring in 2 Peter 3:7 - which is the context of what Peter was saying in the passage before he got to verse 10.

Your argument goes only according to the English translation of the text - not according to what the text of 2 Peter 3:10-12 actually says before it's translated and garbled in the translation.

The elements mentioned are referring to the principles and rudiments of this world, and the works mentioned are referring to the works of darkness and of men, and the dissolving mentioned is referring to what was bound up being loosed (those very things). The passing away mentioned is referring to the heaven/s coming near or passing by or passing close-by (as will occur when Christ comes).

Peter writes what he does in 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the context of talking about the judgment of ungodly men in 2 Peter 3:7 (not the judgment of the planet). The context is what he was talking / writing about just prior to the statements which you have isolated from the passage (let alone from the rest of the New Testament).

The above can also be plainly seen in the scriptures quoted by :



Indeed the current order will pass, but Jesus was not saying that actual heavens and planet earth shall pass away. He was talking about this below, saying that even if or though heaven and earth (the current order) should pass away, His WORDS will not pass away:

Nah. You're turning something simple into something convoluted for no reason. Jesus taught the same thing in Matthew 24:35-39 that Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Peter is clearly talking about literal, physical destruction of the heavens and the earth, just as Jesus did in Matthew 24:35-39 where He taught that the heavens and the earth will pass away when He comes while He compared that event to the flood of Noah's day, which was obviously a global event of physical destruction. Peter made the same comparison in 2 Peter 3:6-7. So, 2 Peter 3:10-12 is clearly referring to literal fire literally dissolving the heavens and burning up the earth. But, that doesn't mean they will be annihilated. They will be renewed and regenerated by fire, resulting in the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13).

 

[Zao is life]

Nah. You're turning something simple into something convoluted for no reason. Jesus taught the same thing in Matthew 24:35-39 that Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Peter is clearly talking about literal, physical destruction of the heavens and the earth, just as Jesus did in Matthew 24:35-39 where He taught that the heavens and the earth will pass away when He comes while He compared that event to the flood of Noah's day, which was obviously a global event of physical destruction. Peter made the same comparison in 2 Peter 3:6-7. So, 2 Peter 3:10-12 is clearly referring to literal fire literally dissolving the heavens and burning up the earth. But, that doesn't mean they will be annihilated. They will be renewed and regenerated by fire, resulting in the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13).

We always did agree that there will be a regenerated heavens and earth to follow that will have been delivered from the bondage of decay. There's a passage where Paul actually speaks about that.

I found in a search after I posted in this thread that the same Greek word is used where Jesus asked the Father if at all possible to let the cup He was to drink PASS from Him

- that Peter used for the passing (away) of the present heavens and the earth.

So my bad.

I still believe though that with "elements being dissolved" Peter was talking about this present earth being loosed (translated only in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as "dissolved") from the bondage of the principles and rudiments of this present world order (translated as "elements" only in 2 Peter 3:10-12) - and it's the works of godless men in the world being judged.

The fire is what they are judged with.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We always did agree that there will be a regenerated heavens and earth to follow that will have been delivered from the bondage of decay. There's a passage where Paul actually speaks about that.

I found in a search after I posted in this thread that the same Greek word is used where Jesus asked the Father if at all possible to let the cup He was to drink PASS from Him

- that Peter used for the passing (away) of the present heavens and the earth.

So my bad.

I still believe though that with "elements being dissolved" Peter was talking about this present earth being loosed (translated only in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as "dissolved") from the bondage of the principles and rudiments of this present world order (translated as "elements" only in 2 Peter 3:10-12) - and it's the works of godless men in the world being judged.

The fire is what they are judged with.

Do you not take the description of the heavens being dissolved literally, either? If you do take that literally, then I see no reason for not taking the elements being dissolved literally as well. To me, either everything described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 is literal or it's all figurative. I believe it's all literal.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you not take the description of the heavens being dissolved literally, either? If you do take that literally, then I see no reason for not taking the elements being dissolved literally as well. To me, either everything described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 is literal or it's all figurative. I believe it's all literal.

Fire doesn't destroy the ground. Notice the different words Peter used for the earth and the world below:

2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or

was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

2 Peter 3:7
But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up.

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used.

2. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

3. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"): In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

2 Peter 3:7
But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fire doesn't destroy the ground. Notice the different words Peter used for the earth and the world below:

2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or

was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

The earth and the world are synonyms in this case. The earth/world was destroyed by the flood. The flood waters affected the entire earth/world, in other words, resulting in mass global destruction. The fire that will come down when Jesus returns will likewise affect the entire earth surface. Again, I'm not saying it will annihilate the earth. But, it will destroy everything on the earth, including all of the people (we, the church, of course, will first be changed to put on bodily immortality and will be caught up to Christ, instead of remaining on the earth and being burned up) and it will regenerate/renew the earth, resulting in the eternal new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fire doesn't destroy the ground. Notice the different words Peter used for the earth and the world below:

2 Peter 3:5-6
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood, or

was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

2 Peter 3:7
But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [parérchomai] with a great noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] shall be dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up.

1. stoicheîon: The word is referring either to the rudiments or principles of this world, or to the principles of the oracles of God in each of the other five verses where the same word is used.

2. lýō (or luo): Always refers to something that was bound or restrained, being loosed (i.e loosed from having been bound), for example:

Revelation of John 20:7:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed [lýō] out of his prison."

3. érgon ("the earth and the works [érgon] that are therein"): In an extremely long list of verses, érgon refers to the works of men. At times it's referring to the works of Satan, and often it's referring to the works of God.

2 Peter 3:7
But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN

The burning up of the rudiments and principles [stoicheîon] of this world, and the works [érgon] of darkness (the works of men and of Satan) goes with the context of the destruction of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7).

You didn't really answer my question. Do you not take the description of the heavens being dissolved literally, either? Yes or no? If you do take that literally, then I see no reason for not taking the elements being dissolved literally as well. Peter was not talking about literal fire in one case and figurative fire in the other. In my view, either all of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is referring to literal, physical fire dissolving the heavens and elements and burning up the earth or it's all figurative.

 

[Zao is life]

The earth/world was destroyed by the flood.

No the planet was not destroyed. Ge refers to the planet.

Kosmos is referring to the world of plants and all flesh that had the breath of life from God in it. It does not have the same meaning as the English word Cosmos.

The flood waters affected the entire earth/world,

No you have conflated them to make them adhere to what you are saying about the planet's destruction. There is a reason why scripture uses two different words.

in other words, resulting in mass global destruction.

The planet (ge) was not destroyed. All flesh was destroyed, with the exception of the redeemed.

The fire that will come down when Jesus returns will likewise affect the entire earth surface.

Fire does not destroy the ground though. It will not cause the Ge to dissolve.

Again, I'm not saying it will annihilate the earth.

Thank you - you see how you have proved yourself wrong about the reason there are different words used by Peter for earth (Ge) and kosmos (the global destruction of all flesh).

But, it will destroy everything on the earth, including all of the people (we, the church, of course, will first be changed to put on bodily immortality and will be caught up to Christ, instead of remaining on the earth and being burned up) and it will regenerate/renew the earth, resulting in the eternal new earth.

Agreed.

 

[Zao is life]

You didn't really answer my question. Do you not take the description of the heavens being dissolved literally, either? Yes or no? If you do take that literally, then I see no reason for not taking the elements being dissolved literally as well. Peter was not talking about literal fire in one case and figurative fire in the other. In my view, either all of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is referring to literal, physical fire dissolving the heavens and elements and burning up the earth or it's all figurative.

The word heavens (ouranos) when appearing in plural form in English = the universe.

It's not the same as the meaning of the Greek word kosmos - which in English refers to the universe, but not in the Greek.

The word in Greek for the planet earth is ge.

kosmos is the world and everything in it.

No, neither the heavens (universe) nor the planet earth (ge) will be "dissolved" - but the rudiments and principles (stoicheon) of this current world order - the kosmos in Greek - and the works (ergon) of men in it will be destroyed by fire - and the earth (ge) will be loosed (luo) from its bondage to decay - which is what the word luo means - which has been translated into English as "dissolved".

 

[Zao is life]

Summary of the conversation between us for you:

2 Peter 3:5-7
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water:

- Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Peter used different words for "the earth" and "the world" when he mentioned the fact that the world perished.

The word heavens (ouranos) when appearing in plural form in English = the universe.

It's not the same as the meaning of the Greek word kosmos - which in English refers to the universe (Cosmos), but not in the Greek.

The word in Greek for the planet earth is ge.

kosmos in the Greek is the world and everything in it.

So let's go back to our first square, where we were before we got lost:

Was it the heavens [οὐρανός ouranós] and the earth [γῆ gē] that perished in the flood,

- or was it the world [O kósmos] and all flesh in it that perished?

You didn't really answer my question. Do you not take the description of the heavens being dissolved literally, either? Yes or no? If you do take that literally, then I see no reason for not taking the elements being dissolved literally as well.

Again, I'm not saying it will annihilate the earth.

Thank you - you see how you have proved yourself wrong about the reason there are different words used by Peter for earth (ge) and kosmos (the global destruction of all flesh).

No, neither the heavens (universe) nor the planet earth (ge) will be "dissolved"

- but the rudiments and principles (stoicheon) of this current world order - the kosmos in Greek - and the works (ergon) of men in it will be destroyed BY FIRE - and the earth (ge) will be loosed (luo) from its bondage to decay - which is what the word luo means - which has been translated into English as "dissolved".

But, it will destroy everything on the earth, including all of the people (we, the church, of course, will first be changed to put on bodily immortality and will be caught up to Christ, instead of remaining on the earth and being burned up) and it will regenerate/renew the earth, resulting in the eternal new earth.

Agreed. Again, this is what Peter wrote:

2 Peter 3:5-7
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranós) were of old, and the earth [gē] standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (o kósmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

It was BY the very existence of the heavens and the earth standing out of water and in the water - which was kept by the Word of God - that the world (kosmos) and all flesh in it was destroyed.

2 Peter 3:7:
"But the present heavens (ouranós) and the earth [gē] being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of JUDGMENT AND DESTRUCTION OF UNGODLY MEN"

Bear in mind what you said:

Again, I'm not saying it will annihilate the earth.

Because it does not agree with the notion that the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (ge) will be dissolved.

The word "dissolved" is from the Greek luo, which means to be loosed from being bound by something - which in the context of 2 Peter 3:5-12 is being loosed from the bondage of decay.

There's nothing in there to say that it's the planet earth (ge) and the heavens (universe, ouranos) that will pass away

- it's the rudiments and principles of this present world (kosmos) and everything in this present world (kosmos) that will pass away.