If the punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment, did Jesus pay the price?

[Hillsage]

You believe wrong...

The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 we see how the Holy Spirit led the Apostles to conclude that gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the rules prescribed to the Jews by the Mosaic Law, such as Jewish dietary laws and the rules concerning circumcision of males. The Apostles were led by the Lord to retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry.
ACT 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

I disagree and suggest you read all of this chapter in context. Along with another scripture from Galatians.

ACT 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

ACT 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Pharisees which believed in Christ!!!!! Careful, they were still Pharisees first. So let's see what James had to say at the end of the meeting.

ACT 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Theologians all agree that the 'law of Moses' is the yoke spoken of here.

GAL 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Was Paul's opinion above, before/after having that meeting at Jerusalem?

As to the final ruling from James in Jerusalem in Acts 15.

ACT 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I don't see 'your' command to keep the Mosaic law anywhere. Just warnings against paganism.

So, IN MY OPINION I am still right, and you have an opportunity to hopefully change your mind.

@St. SteVen

 

[Hillsage]

What you do not realize is under the New Covenant we are under the Law of Christ which includes God's moral law
Jesus is the High Priest over the New Covenant and HE decided that God's moral law is included under the New Covenant as God's moral law was in place long before the levitical law was ever given thru Moses

Those being led by the Holy Spirit will not engage in eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry. The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was led by the Lord and is under the Law of Christ.

If you are going to claim it's OK to eat blood, then you also concede that you believe fornication and idolatry are not sins either.

This has nothing to do with the moral law of God under the law of Moses. No one here is promoting sin of any kind.

As for what SteVen posted I will just back him up with more scripture you and Jack need to read IN CONTEXT.

1Cor 10: 14-33

1CO 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16* The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17* For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles (pagan meat market), that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Eat or drink whatever you want unless the idol worshiper with you wants you to know he is worshiping his god. End of lesson from Paul.

And according to verse 32 we're talking about the dietary food laws of "JEWS" or pagan Greek "Gentiles" or even those in 'the church of God'.....say what????? Yeah, they apparently had alcohol and food problems back then too, just like the church of today. Any "Christians" here ever eat at an ASIAN restaurant where they have that pagan idol BUDDAH just inside the front door....with those citrus fruits. Hmmmmm.



@Jack @St. SteVen

 

[ScottA]

How can the cost of sin be MORE than what Jesus paid for it?

Same question concerning Annihilationism.
If the punishment for sin is complete destruction, did Jesus pay the price?

[

That is not what the scriptures say. It is written, "It is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." Which is death of the flesh. After that the judgement regarding eternity.

Our eternal soul is a different matter...for which it is written “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— Which is to say, God has not made death permanent unless we do not choose life in Christ.

 

[Jack]

Eat blood? BARF! We used to have a guy here who promoted eating human babies.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

So, IN MY OPINION I am still right

You still believe wrong.

Which is why I'm staying with the whole counsel of God instead of bits and pieces of God's Word which leads to error.

The Apostles were led by the Lord to retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry.

Since you claim none of this is true... you are also conceding that Christians can engage in the fornication and idolatry and still be saved in addition to the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled taught in Acts 15

This is classic cherry picken!

 

[Hillsage]

You still believe wrong.

Which is why I'm staying with the whole counsel of God instead of bits and pieces of God's Word which leads to error.

The Apostles were led by the Lord to retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry.

Since you claim none of this is true... you are also conceding that Christians can engage in the fornication and idolatry and still be saved in addition to the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled taught in Acts 15

This is classic cherry picken! View attachment 71380

You still have never quoted one scripture to defend your position. Your 'generalization based comment' on chapter 15 was decimated by my #15 Post. Quote one verse to support your 'generalization' which simply reveals a poorly indoctrinated OPINION. Support for your view does not exist in that whole chapter or anywhere in the NEW TESTAMENT. All my verses may have been 'cherry red'. It will take 'that scripture' of whatever color from you, to prove anything I said as being wrong. Do so, and I will humbly admit to being wrong.

 

[Jack]

BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell who don't believe in Hell! Jesus said so.

 

[St. SteVen]

If the punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment, did Jesus pay the price?​

How can the cost of sin be MORE than what Jesus paid for it?

Same question concerning Annihilationism.
If the punishment for sin is complete destruction, did Jesus pay the price?

 

[Behold]

If the punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment, did Jesus pay the price?​

How can the cost of sin be MORE than what Jesus paid for it?

Same question concerning Annihilationism.
If the punishment for sin is complete destruction, did Jesus pay the price?

Still digging up youer old dead Threads. @St Steven.

So, the answer to your question is....... Jesus is God's eternal redemption, and this offer of redemption is a Gift given to the world.
Its the "gift of Salvation"., and everyone who comes to God by faith in Christ, before they die, will receive it.
Everyone who didnt, never will.

 

[St. SteVen]

Still digging up youer old dead Threads. @St Steven.

Yet here you are.

So, the answer to your question is....... Jesus is God's eternal redemption, and this offer of redemption is a Gift given to the world.
Its the "gift of Salvation"., and everyone who comes to God by faith in Christ, before they die, will receive it.
Everyone who didnt, never will.

What about those who never heard?
Your Protestant evangelical gospel doesn't seem fair.

 

[Behold]

Yet here you are.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

What about those who never heard?

Everyone will hear.

Your Protestant evangelical gospel doesn't seem fair.

Your comment as usual, indicates that you are not familar with God's Justice and Judgement.
According to your posts and Threads, you dont even represent yourself as a Christian.
See, anyone can come to this forum, and post "im a christian" in their BIO Page, yet, after 2 yrs, you've posted nothing but attacks against the "church", "the bible" and God Himself.
You've also confused God wtih Santa Claus, as do a lot of religious "types".

And, You teach a false Gospel, so, you are in no position to even be on the forum, but the Mods on this one, dont concern themselves with false gospels., and This is the reason you are currently still being allowed to rant your deceptions and false accusations, that pretend to be sincere Threads.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What about those who never heard?

Everyone will hear.

When?
Countless billions have already gone to the afterlife without hearing.

St. SteVen said:
Your Protestant evangelical gospel doesn't seem fair.

... but the Mods... dont concern themselves with false gospels.

That's why you are still here. - LOL

 

[Behold]

Countless billions have already gone to the afterlife without hearing.

Not according to God, have billions not heard.

However, you can believe your own opinions, ....after all, your opinion is your God. @St. SteVen

See you there next time....

 

[St. SteVen]

Not according to God, have billions not heard.

When did God say that?
So, you haven't heard of unreached people groups? (I told you about it)

Joshua Project - Reaching the Unreached | Joshua Project

Joshua Project is a research initiative seeking to identify the ethnic people groups of the world with the fewest followers of Jesus. Join us in reaching the unreached.

joshuaproject.net

 

[Behold]

When did God say that?
So, you haven't heard of unreached people groups? (I told you about it)

Joshua Project - Reaching the Unreached | Joshua Project

Joshua Project is a research initiative seeking to identify the ethnic people groups of the world with the fewest followers of Jesus. Join us in reaching the unreached.

joshuaproject.net

So, you found a small unit, that states their written opinion... and now, you have yours and they have theirs.

Would you like me to find you another one online for you?....just so you can have 2 useless claims?

Listen, , I can promise you that in Countries that dont allow Christians, or a Bible, or water baptism........ the Gospel is in there, Christ is being adored, and Believers are being birthed, and water baptized..... illegally.
See, You can't keep God out, as He made the world and everything in it belongs to Him.
The "gates of Hell shall not prevail" against the Body of Christ, the word of God, or the Gospel.

= God knows exactly where the "hard to reach" are located and will reach them........same as always for the last 2000 yrs.
You dont have to have Internet and cable and a cell phone......as God was reaching the lost long before the last 40 yrs when all this "hi-tech" showed up.

Now, you can continue to believe that God isn't capable of reaching every last soul who has ears....simply because this group or that speaker or your pipe dream opinion, leads you to believe what isn't true.
@St. SteVen ....You are one of those people........as you believe a gospel that isn't true,, and you've happily and disrespectfully defined God Almighty on this very Forum as an ""extortionist""", and not just once while the Mods just sit there and admire it.
So, is it any surprise that you dont believe God capable of reaching everyone with the Gospel...........
Im not surprised, and God isn't surprised, as He knows all your thoughts long before you "click bait" them the next time on this forum as a "Thread".

 

[Button]

How can the cost of sin be MORE than what Jesus paid for it?

Same question concerning Annihilationism.
If the punishment for sin is complete destruction, did Jesus pay the price?

[

Hell was invented by the Roman Catholic Church.

And then they reiterated that myth by judging and then burning people alive.

Want to be inspired to be a good Catholic. Watch someone who was tortured nearly to death by inquisitors then get tied to a stake and set on fire after the kindling under their feet is ignighted by the executioner.

The excuse being,burning the sinner alive now cleanses their sin so they don't suffer in that way in Hell for eternity.

 

[St. SteVen]

The excuse being,burning the sinner alive now cleanses their sin so they don't suffer in that way in Hell for eternity.

The way I heard it was that they felt justified in starting the work that God would finish.

 

[Button]

The way I heard it was that they felt justified in starting the work that God would finish.

That's an equally sick excuse for them to use in order to torture people to death.

 

[Brakelite]

I asked the same question years ago....

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.

1 Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place. The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And there are scores of scriptures that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1 Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2 Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3 Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity being tortured in hell?

b If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

 

[St. SteVen]

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my question is.....
When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

The short answer is, Yes.

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place. The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And there are scores of scriptures that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.

Agree.

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1 Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2 Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3 Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

Agree in general.
Point 3 needs some response.
There is no way for us to pay the price. Fortunately the price has been paid.
The unrepentant will need to be corrected and restored to a right relationship. IMHO

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity being tortured in hell?

b If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

Agree.
Hell, or eternal conscious torment makes no sense.