Man's Preterism, An Abomination

[Davy]

To limit the comings of Christ in physical body, forgets the eternal life we possess the moment we believe and are born again of His Spirit, is Christ coming to believers SPIRITUALLY, not physically. It is when we have spiritual life through Christ, the life we possess is ETERNAL! Our bodies will die, but when the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, the spiritual life we have through Him shall never die. This is why we read that when Christ returns, He will bring with Him all who have died in Him. Even though we shall physically die, the eternal/never ending/forever life we have through the Spirit of Christ in us returns to God alive. Which is also why we read that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, though long dead, are not dead unto God, for He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. It is the spiritual body of Christ that shall return with Jesus to give immortal life to our resurrected flesh.

That's not what The Bible teaches either. In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul showed that even if our flesh body were dissolved, we still have another body, not made with hands (non-flesh), eternal in the heavens from God. That is about our "spiritual body". The "spiritual body" is NOT made of material matter like flesh.

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[Davy]

The children of darkness who serve the devil who created men's theories of PRETERISM think they are clever. Notice what Lord Jesus said below when His disciples commented on the buildings then standing on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem...

Matt 24:1-3
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

That above verse PRETERISTS love to lie about, and claim it means when Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., that fulfilled that prophecy. Then they attempt to claim the rest of the prophecies Jesus gave here in Matthew 24 were then fulfilled also, which is truly stupid, since the last prophecy Jesus gave here is about His future 2nd coming and gathering of His Church.

And then just how... did PRETERISTS deal with that 2nd coming fact? They created FULL PRETERISM, which falsely claims Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in His Apostle's day, and was meant ONLY as a spiritual coming! With Preterists, what you get is that if one LIE doesn't work out good enough, just create another LIE on top of it. It's so easy... to spot them and their lies. But one must stay... in God's Word as written to discover that.


3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

That above question by Christ's Apostles after Jesus remarked about not one stone atop another, shows they understood Jesus was pointing to the literal... END... of this world for that event.

PRETERISTS don't like to stay here in Matthew 24 after claiming what Jesus said was fulfilled in 70 A.D. They like to get to the Luke 21 Chapter version of Christ's Olivet discourse, which gives some different perspectives of the signs of the END He gave His disciples. The Luke 21 Chapter is not as strong a pointer to the timing of those signs like the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Chapters are.

So how does God's Word explain what Jesus said about not one stone atop another while giving other signs that definitely point to the very END of this world in the LAST GENERATION?

There is such a thing in God's Word called 'dual fulfillment' Bible prophecy. The first time the event happens may serve only as a partial fulfillment, with the remaining fulfilled later. The role of historical Babylon having fallen per Isaiah 21 is repeated metaphorically in Christ's Book of Revelation about the very END of this world. Revelation 14 and 18 both repeat the very words of Isaiah 21:9 with, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen."

Likewise, in the Book of Daniel about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a stone temple in Jerusalem, that was first done around 165 B.C. by Antiochus Epiphanes who took Jerusalem with an army, went inside the 2nd temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar and spread its broth around inside the temple, spiritually desolating it. Then he setup an IDOL to the false god Zeus of the Greeks, and demanded all bow to it, or be killed. Yet Lord Jesus, around 200 years after all that, quoted that prophecy from the Book of Daniel as a Sign for the start of the "great tribulation" at the END of this world (See Matthew 24:15 forward). That means Lord Jesus moved the final fulfillment of that prophecy about that "abomination of desolation" idol forward in time, to the very END of this world just PRIOR to His 2nd coming. And that then means ALL... of those SIGNS Jesus gave there in His Olivet discourse to His disciples are pointing directly to the END of this world in the LAST GENERATION, the generation that will SEE Christ's 2nd coming.

 

[rwb]

That's not what The Bible teaches either. In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul showed that even if our flesh body were dissolved, we still have another body, not made with hands (non-flesh), eternal in the heavens from God. That is about our "spiritual body". The "spiritual body" is NOT made of material matter like flesh.

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Exactly! Spirit hath not flesh & bone! Spirit of man who has died in faith is living soul without human form. As the angels of God in heaven that are living spirit without flesh. When the spirit of man of faith returns to God after physical death there is still life in spiritual form. That's why we read of living souls in heaven after being martyred for their faith, they are the spiritual body of Christ with Him, even after physical death, in heaven just as He promises we shall always be with Him, where He is.

When we are born again through the Spirit of Christ in us, we are clothed in mortal human flesh, but we are in Christ a spiritual man, who shall put off this physical body after death but continue to be alive with Christ a spiritual body with Him forever. Because Christ promises the life we receive eternally when we believe in Him, being born again is not for physical life, but for eternal spiritual life. Then when Christ comes again, He will bring the spiritual body of saints with Him to give immortal & incorruptible physical life to our body of flesh & bone.

 

[grafted branch]

Read and heed what Jesus said in John 5:28-29.

The resurrection in John 5:28-29 has both the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. If you have that resurrection taking place prior to the millennium along with every eye seeing Him at that time, then what is your view on who the rest of the dead are that live not again till the thousand years are finished in Revelation 20:5?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The children of darkness who serve the devil who created men's theories of PRETERISM think they are clever. Notice what Lord Jesus said below when His disciples commented on the buildings then standing on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem...

Matt 24:1-3
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

That above verse PRETERISTS love to lie about, and claim it means when Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., that fulfilled that prophecy.

LOL. Your foolishness knows no bounds. You don't have to be a preterist to see that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the physical temple buildings that were standing at that time and you don't have to be a preterist to acknowledge that His prophecy about the temple buildings being destroyed was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Then they attempt to claim the rest of the prophecies Jesus gave here in Matthew 24 were then fulfilled also, which is truly stupid, since the last prophecy Jesus gave here is about His future 2nd coming and gathering of His Church.

I agree with this, but it's "truly stupid" to assume that just because Matthew 24 is mostly about His future second coming then that means that He couldn't have also said something about the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple buildings as well. Both preterists and futurists like you get the Olivet Discourse wrong by thinking that Jesus either only talked about what would happen in 70 AD or only talked about things related to His still future second coming. No, He talked about both.

 

[covenantee]

That above verse PRETERISTS love to lie about, and claim it means when Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., that fulfilled that prophecy. Then they attempt to claim the rest of the prophecies Jesus gave here in Matthew 24 were then fulfilled also, which is truly stupid, since the last prophecy Jesus gave here is about His future 2nd coming and gathering of His Church.

Were the Judaean Christians who fled prior to 70 AD in response to Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:16, truly stupid?

Not one of them was a dispensational futurist.

So they were immeasurably smarter than you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Were the Judaean Christians who fled prior to 70 AD in response to Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:16, truly stupid?

Not one of them was a dispensational futurist.

So they were immeasurably smarter than you.

Amen. It's truly stupid that anyone, like Davy, would think that Jesus would not have wanted to warn His followers in Judea to flee the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple buildings ahead of time in order to spare their lives.

 

[Truth7t7]

Firstly, what is the doctrine of Preterism?

Here is a definition of Preterism from gotquestions.org... at What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

"According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.​

​

Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem."​

What you actually have there brethren in Christ, with that doctrine of men called Preterism, is DENIAL of Lord Jesus' COMMANDMENT to WATCH the SIGNS of the END He gave His Church leading up to His future return.

And likewise that applies to His Apostle's WARNINGS about DECEPTION for the END of this world also; Apostle Paul having given many such warnings.

Another thing those on man's FALSE THEORY OF PRETERISM like to do, is that if you don't agree those Bible prophecies are all past history, then it means you are a Futurist. That term Futurist is just another seminary tether label they come up with, in particular to point to those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. So it's obvious Preterism intend to trap any way they can one into their false paradigm, or they CLAIM... you are not following The Bible. The reality is that they... are the ones NOT following what is written in The Bible.

I myself was raised in a mainstream Christian Church based on men's false theory of Preterism (Partial Preterism, which still believes in Christ's 2nd coming). They never... taught Bible prophecy. They are not allowed... to! It defeats their doctrines of Preterism. So just how SICK is that?

Of course as a child, I didn't know what all this was about. But when I was given The Holy Spirit urge to discipline myself in God's Word for myself, that is when I learned about these little 'tether' doctrines by men that come out of seminaries, not all of them of course, but enough of them that will deceive the believer away from what God's Word actually teaches. Christ's enemies have had over 2,000 years to create these 'tether' doctrines by creeping into Christian schools that train pastors. To not be aware of their existence and creeping in is like having one's head buried in the sand.

"Oh Davy, you must be a Futurist then, if you don't believe all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.", the Preterist might say.

NO! I am NOT a Futurist either. I believe God's Word as written about the time of Lord Jesus' 2nd coming, and Jesus revealed His 2nd coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Once again, that Futurist seminary label was created mainly for those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, not only for those who disagree with Preterism.

Are you confused about their little 'tether' terms yet, which are designed to keep you in a theological box they can control? If Partial Preterism agrees at least with the fact that Jesus' 2nd coming is still FUTURE, how can they try to use terms like Futurism against others? It's STUPID. And that is how you will always... catch the false workers against Christ that creep in. Their doctrines always... wind up in STUPID IDEAS, and not just blatantly against what the written Bible Scripture teaches. Why is that you think? It is because of their FALSE AGENDA, which does not care about GOD's TRUTH in His Word, but only cares about DECEIVING YOU TO CIRCUMNAVIGATE AROUND GOD'S TRUTH IN HIS WORD.

Millennialism, an Abomination

 

[Truth7t7]

Were the Judaean Christians who fled prior to 70 AD in response to Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:16, truly stupid?

Not one of them was a dispensational futurist.

So they were immeasurably smarter than you.

Jesus didn't give a 70AD warning as you claim, Matthew Chapter 24 had no fulfillment in 70AD whatsoever

 

[Davy]

Exactly! Spirit hath not flesh & bone! Spirit of man who has died in faith is living soul without human form.

No, that is not Biblically accurate either. The image of man originates from God's Own Image Likeness in the Heavenly, and like Apostle John said, "God is a Spirit." (John 4:24)

All angels shown in God's Word to have an image, it is the image of man. Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God'. This is also why angels are called "sons of God", because there is no marriage in Heaven like Jesus said. The only gender is the male gender. Woman was created for this 2nd world earth age in order to continue the flesh human race for this present world time. When Jesus returns, those still alive in the flesh will have their flesh body cast off with their "spiritual body" suddenly revealed that was inside their flesh body all along. The flesh body will no longer be needed in that world to come. Yet in the heavenly spiritual body, we will still be able to live on this earth.

Some brethren simply will not understand this until Lord Jesus returns and the "change" at the "twinkling of an eye" that Apostle Paul spoke of happens on that day.

 

[IndianaRob]

.

Firstly, what is the doctrine of Preterism?

Here is a definition of Preterism from gotquestions.org... at What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

"According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.​

​

Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem."​

What you actually have there brethren in Christ, with that doctrine of men called Preterism, is DENIAL of Lord Jesus' COMMANDMENT to WATCH the SIGNS of the END He gave His Church leading up to His future return.

And likewise that applies to His Apostle's WARNINGS about DECEPTION for the END of this world also; Apostle Paul having given many such warnings.

Another thing those on man's FALSE THEORY OF PRETERISM like to do, is that if you don't agree those Bible prophecies are all past history, then it means you are a Futurist. That term Futurist is just another seminary tether label they come up with, in particular to point to those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. So it's obvious Preterism intend to trap any way they can one into their false paradigm, or they CLAIM... you are not following The Bible. The reality is that they... are the ones NOT following what is written in The Bible.

I myself was raised in a mainstream Christian Church based on men's false theory of Preterism (Partial Preterism, which still believes in Christ's 2nd coming). They never... taught Bible prophecy. They are not allowed... to! It defeats their doctrines of Preterism. So just how SICK is that?

Of course as a child, I didn't know what all this was about. But when I was given The Holy Spirit urge to discipline myself in God's Word for myself, that is when I learned about these little 'tether' doctrines by men that come out of seminaries, not all of them of course, but enough of them that will deceive the believer away from what God's Word actually teaches. Christ's enemies have had over 2,000 years to create these 'tether' doctrines by creeping into Christian schools that train pastors. To not be aware of their existence and creeping in is like having one's head buried in the sand.

"Oh Davy, you must be a Futurist then, if you don't believe all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.", the Preterist might say.

NO! I am NOT a Futurist either. I believe God's Word as written about the time of Lord Jesus' 2nd coming, and Jesus revealed His 2nd coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Once again, that Futurist seminary label was created mainly for those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, not only for those who disagree with Preterism.

Are you confused about their little 'tether' terms yet, which are designed to keep you in a theological box they can control? If Partial Preterism agrees at least with the fact that Jesus' 2nd coming is still FUTURE, how can they try to use terms like Futurism against others? It's STUPID. And that is how you will always... catch the false workers against Christ that creep in. Their doctrines always... wind up in STUPID IDEAS, and not just blatantly against what the written Bible Scripture teaches. Why is that you think? It is because of their FALSE AGENDA, which does not care about GOD's TRUTH in His Word, but only cares about DECEIVING YOU TO CIRCUMNAVIGATE AROUND GOD'S TRUTH IN HIS WORD.

Is it stupid to believe this?

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

This one?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

How about this?

Mrk 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Is stupid for someone to believe these verses? No it isn’t. It’s stupid to say that Jesus didn’t bring in His kingdom, in all power and glory at the resurrection.

 

[Davy]

The resurrection in John 5:28-29 has both the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. If you have that resurrection taking place prior to the millennium along with every eye seeing Him at that time, then what is your view on who the rest of the dead are that live not again till the thousand years are finished in Revelation 20:5?

In order to understand about the "dead" of Revelation 20:5 it requires remembering previous Bible study about the resurrection by Apostle Paul, and the examples that Jesus gave about the idea of 'spiritual death' vs. being "born again."

Rev 20:5
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
KJV

The first phrase above that draws attention is that term, "the dead". Either what Jesus said is true per John 5:28-29 that ALL... those in the graves are resurrected on the day of His coming, or Lord Jesus lied about it and it is not true, and instead the above Rev.20:5 verse is true that some are still literally in graves waiting to be resurrected after His coming. So which is it, because thinking of the two verses in that way definitely causes a conflict of Bible Scripture. And what I am especially amazed at with many brethren is how easy they will disregard what Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29 in favor of believing Rev.20:5 means dead are still in the ground.

Yet I am not simply trying to persuade using logic, what I am pointing to is the lack of Biblical understanding of the Scriptures many have.

1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is assumed by the majority in the Church that Paul was speaking only about those in Christ going through that 'change' on the day of Christ's future return. Paul was actually including ALL... the dead, not just the saints that are asleep metaphorically. The next verse points this out, but in the Greek with 4 different Greek words with 4 different meanings...

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The above change is about TWO separate changes that must happen, not just one change.

1. FIRST CHANGE:
change from our flesh corruptible body to the body of incorruption, a "spiritual body", which is the "image of the heavenly."

All... the angels have that image of the heavenly. So will the resurrection of damnation have that image of the heavenly also. So that state is NOT CHRIST'S SALVATION TO ETERNAL LIFE. It is only a change from the body type of this present world, which is a flesh body, to the body type of the world to come, a spirit body. Per Paul in 2 Cor.5, everyone born in the flesh already has that spirit body dwelling inside their flesh body. This was even shown in Eccl.12:5-7 and even about the idea of a "silver cord" that connects our spirit (spirit body) with our flesh body.

2. SECOND CHANGE:
change of the mortal soul with putting on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ, i.e., being "born again".

That is the 2nd required change that must happen in order to have Eternal Life through Jesus Christ. Do those of the "resurrection of damnation" have that change? No, not if they still reject Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus revealed this distinction when He compared the blind Pharisees like dead men walking, because of rejecting Him, and thus were not "born again" (which means born from above by The Spirit). They were 'spiritually dead', not literally dead in graves yet. Their souls are still mortal and in a 'liable to die' condition, meaning liable to the "second death" which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after the thousand years. And that is what that Greek word for "this mortal" means, still in a 'liable to die' state.

Only those born again in Christ Jesus on that day will go through BOTH CONDITIONS, and have ETERNAL LIFE through Lord Jesus Christ. The rest of the dead, the "resurrection of damnation" that are also raised on the day of Jesus' return, will still have MORTAL liable to perish souls all throughout Christ's Millennial reign.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

In the Greek of Revelation 20:5, that "lived not again" phrase doesn't have the word 'again' in it. It simply says those "dead" did not live until the end of the thousand years, and that agrees with what Apostle Paul showed about the unsaved dead in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 per the Greek.

Thus when Jesus returns, on that day ALL... in the graves will be resurrected, like He said in John 5:28-29. But the 'spiritually dead', those unsaved not "born again", will still have mortal liable to perish souls. And that's the "resurrection of damnation", AND also ANY soul without Christ that was still alive on earth when Jesus comes and is 'changed' like the alive saints will be. What that points to is that all... peoples will be in the resurrected type body, which Paul taught is the "spiritual body", or a spirit body, and that includes the unsaved nations also.

Confusion on this comes easy when looking at that idea of "lived not again until" phrase in the flesh body sense. Once Lord Jesus returns, the land of the LIVING will only mean those "born again" in Christ. This is why Lord Jesus said God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING, that all LIVE unto Him, and Jesus was pointing to the Heavenly with that (Luke 20:37-38). That doesn't mean the 'spiritually dead' are not still alive in the spirit, but only that they are not... in Christ because of not being "born again", and thus cannot belong to those of the land of the Living represented by the 1st resurrection. Thus one must be careful how they understand that idea of 'living' for that future world time.

Thus for THAT FUTURE TIME after the resurrection on the day of Christ's return, those "dead" of Rev.20:5 are just 'spiritually' dead souls still liable to perish, meaning they DO NOT LIVE... UNTO CHRIST, UNTIL they believe on Lord Jesus Christ, and thus are SAVED during that thousand years reign. Then those spiritually dead will LIVE UNTO CHRIST AND BE GIVEN IMMORTAL SOULS, and be joined with those of the 1st resurrection unto Christ. That is why the Book of Life is opened one final time after the thousand years, to see if there are any more names found in it. There will be. There will be new converts to Christ Jesus during that thousand years.

Obviously, this is quite a lot for most to take in from the Scriptures, but it is what God's Word is pointing to. And Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that idea of Death swallowed in Victory which is shown will apply to ALL peoples and ALL nations.

 

[Davy]

Is it stupid to believe this?

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

This one?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

How about this?

Mrk 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Is stupid for someone to believe these verses? No it isn’t. It’s stupid to say that Jesus didn’t bring in His kingdom, in all power and glory at the resurrection.

Explain this then...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
NKJV

 

[covenantee]

Jesus didn't give a 70AD warning as you claim, Matthew Chapter 24 had no fulfillment in 70AD whatsoever

The Judaean Christians knew that Jesus did give a warning; they heeded and acted upon it, and preserved their lives.

Because not one of them listened to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Yet I am not simply trying to persuade using logic, what I am pointing to is the lack of Biblical understanding of the Scriptures many have.

1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is assumed by the majority in the Church that Paul was speaking only about those in Christ going through that 'change' on the day of Christ's future return. Paul was actually including ALL... the dead, not just the saints that are asleep metaphorically. The next verse points this out, but in the Greek with 4 different Greek words with 4 different meanings...

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The above change is about TWO separate changes that must happen, not just one change.

1. FIRST CHANGE:
change from our flesh corruptible body to the body of incorruption, a "spiritual body", which is the "image of the heavenly."

All... the angels have that image of the heavenly. So will the resurrection of damnation have that image of the heavenly also. So that state is NOT CHRIST'S SALVATION TO ETERNAL LIFE. It is only a change from the body type of this present world, which is a flesh body, to the body type of the world to come, a spirit body. Per Paul in 2 Cor.5, everyone born in the flesh already has that spirit body dwelling inside their flesh body. This was even shown in Eccl.12:5-7 and even about the idea of a "silver cord" that connects our spirit (spirit body) with our flesh body.

2. SECOND CHANGE:
change of the mortal soul with putting on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ, i.e., being "born again".

That is the 2nd required change that must happen in order to have Eternal Life through Jesus Christ. Do those of the "resurrection of damnation" have that change? No, not if they still reject Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus revealed this distinction when He compared the blind Pharisees like dead men walking, because of rejecting Him, and thus were not "born again" (which means born from above by The Spirit). They were 'spiritually dead', not literally dead in graves yet. Their souls are still mortal and in a 'liable to die' condition, meaning liable to the "second death" which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" after the thousand years. And that is what that Greek word for "this mortal" means, still in a 'liable to die' state.

Only those born again in Christ Jesus on that day will go through BOTH CONDITIONS, and have ETERNAL LIFE through Lord Jesus Christ. The rest of the dead, the "resurrection of damnation" that are also raised on the day of Jesus' return, will still have MORTAL liable to perish souls all throughout Christ's Millennial reign.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV



In the Greek of Revelation 20:5, that "lived not again" phrase doesn't have the word 'again' in it. It simply says those "dead" did not live until the end of the thousand years, and that agrees with what Apostle Paul showed about the unsaved dead in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 per the Greek.

Thus when Jesus returns, on that day ALL... in the graves will be resurrected, like He said in John 5:28-29. But the 'spiritually dead', those unsaved not "born again", will still have mortal liable to perish souls. And that's the "resurrection of damnation", AND also ANY soul without Christ that was still alive on earth when Jesus comes and is changed like the alive saints will be. What that points to is that all... peoples will be in the resurrected type body, which Paul taught is the "spiritual body", or a spirit body, and that includes the unsaved also.

Confusion on this comes easy when looking at that idea of "lived not again until" phrase in the flesh body sense. Once Lord Jesus returns, the land of the LIVING will only mean those "born again" in Christ. This is why Lord Jesus said God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING, that all LIVE unto Him, and Jesus was pointing to the Heavenly with that (Luke 20:37-38). That doesn't mean the 'spiritually dead' are not still alive in the spirit, but only that they are not... in Christ because of not being "born again", and thus cannot belong to those of the land of the Living represented by the 1st resurrection. Thus one must be careful how they understand that idea of 'living' for that future world time.

Thus for THAT FUTURE TIME after the resurrection on the day of Christ's return, those "dead" of Rev.20:5 are just 'spiritually' dead souls still liable to perish, meaning they DO NOT LIVE... UNTO CHRIST, UNTIL they believe on Lord Jesus Christ, and thus are SAVED during that thousand years reign. Then those spiritually dead will LIVE UNTO CHRIST AND BE GIVEN IMMORTAL SOULS, and be joined with those of the 1st resurrection unto Christ. That is why the Book of Life is opened one final time after the thousand years, to see if there are any more names found in it. There will be. There will be new converts to Christ Jesus during that thousand years.

Obviously, this is quite a lot for most to take in from the Scriptures, but it is what God's Word is pointing to. And Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that idea of Death swallowed in Victory which is shown will apply to ALL peoples and ALL nations.

The reason you are not trying to persuade using logic is because you are being illogical to begin with Therefore, you act as if some of the rest of us are as stupid as you are being here, by chalking it up as a lack of Biblical understanding on our part. I usually don't use the word 'stupid' when describing what one is doing, but in your case I'm making an exception since 'stupid' is one of your favorite words to fling at others who you disagree with. So, IOW, if you can't take it, maye you shouldn't dish it out.

Maybe you are not a universalist yourself, yet you do exactly what universalists do. You find keywords, such as 'all', but instead of applying it in context, you apply it universally instead.

Anyone paying attention to context would not be applying 'all' in verse 51 in the manner you do, based on verse 57 alone---But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly, this 'us' and 'our' meant in verse 57 is meaning the same 'we' and 'all' meant in verse 51.

Except you would have us believe that verse 57 should be understood like such---But thanks be to God, which giveth us, both the saved and the damned, the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Instead of this---But thanks be to God, which giveth us, the saved, the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Which then means verse 51 is to be understood like such---Behold, I shew you a mystery; We the saved shall not all sleep, but we the saved shall all be changed---rather than---Behold, I shew you a mystery; We the saved and the damned shall not all sleep, but we, the saved and the damned, shall all be changed.

This does not deny a resurrection of the damned as well. It denies that the damned are also meant here. The damned are not raised and judged until after the millennium, not before the millennium. Even Amils don't agree with you since no Amil thinks the bodily resurrection of the saved or even of the damned, is before the millennium. Keeping in mind, your view has both groups being raised before the millennium. Everyone else has some bodily raised before the millennium, then the rest bodily raised after the millennium. And some have everyone bodily raised after the millennium. And here you are, you have everyone being bodily raised before the millennium, and that, we which disagree, it is because we lack Biblical understanding.

No matter how you look at it then, there is no such thing as the damned being bodily raised at or just prior to the beginning of the millennium. If you are correct, this means everyone, both the saved and the lost, have part in the first resurrection. Thus, both the saved and the damned are blessed and holy. Thus, both the saved and the damned, the 2nd death has no power over either group. Thus, there is no 2nd resurrection even though Revelation 20:5 makes it crystal clear that there is. And since these in verse 5 are not meaning anyone in verse 4 nor 6, what should that be telling any thinking person? It should be telling them it is meaning the resurrection unto damnation and that it is meaning after the millennium, not before the millennium, when these in verse 5 are also bodily raised.

 

[IndianaRob]

Explain this then...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
NKJV

I don’t understand what needs explaining. Jesus was speaking before the cross. His kingdom had not yet been established. After His resurrection and ascension, He sat down at the right hand of God and His kingdom began.

 

[ScottA]

Firstly, what is the doctrine of Preterism?

Here is a definition of Preterism from gotquestions.org... at What is the preterist view of the end times? | GotQuestions.org

"According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment.​

​

Preterism denies the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation. The preterist movement essentially teaches that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem."​

What you actually have there brethren in Christ, with that doctrine of men called Preterism, is DENIAL of Lord Jesus' COMMANDMENT to WATCH the SIGNS of the END He gave His Church leading up to His future return.

And likewise that applies to His Apostle's WARNINGS about DECEPTION for the END of this world also; Apostle Paul having given many such warnings.

Another thing those on man's FALSE THEORY OF PRETERISM like to do, is that if you don't agree those Bible prophecies are all past history, then it means you are a Futurist. That term Futurist is just another seminary tether label they come up with, in particular to point to those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. So it's obvious Preterism intend to trap any way they can one into their false paradigm, or they CLAIM... you are not following The Bible. The reality is that they... are the ones NOT following what is written in The Bible.

I myself was raised in a mainstream Christian Church based on men's false theory of Preterism (Partial Preterism, which still believes in Christ's 2nd coming). They never... taught Bible prophecy. They are not allowed... to! It defeats their doctrines of Preterism. So just how SICK is that?

Of course as a child, I didn't know what all this was about. But when I was given The Holy Spirit urge to discipline myself in God's Word for myself, that is when I learned about these little 'tether' doctrines by men that come out of seminaries, not all of them of course, but enough of them that will deceive the believer away from what God's Word actually teaches. Christ's enemies have had over 2,000 years to create these 'tether' doctrines by creeping into Christian schools that train pastors. To not be aware of their existence and creeping in is like having one's head buried in the sand.

"Oh Davy, you must be a Futurist then, if you don't believe all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.", the Preterist might say.

NO! I am NOT a Futurist either. I believe God's Word as written about the time of Lord Jesus' 2nd coming, and Jesus revealed His 2nd coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27). Once again, that Futurist seminary label was created mainly for those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, not only for those who disagree with Preterism.

Are you confused about their little 'tether' terms yet, which are designed to keep you in a theological box they can control? If Partial Preterism agrees at least with the fact that Jesus' 2nd coming is still FUTURE, how can they try to use terms like Futurism against others? It's STUPID. And that is how you will always... catch the false workers against Christ that creep in. Their doctrines always... wind up in STUPID IDEAS, and not just blatantly against what the written Bible Scripture teaches. Why is that you think? It is because of their FALSE AGENDA, which does not care about GOD's TRUTH in His Word, but only cares about DECEIVING YOU TO CIRCUMNAVIGATE AROUND GOD'S TRUTH IN HIS WORD.

It is obvious that this is all a pet peeve of yours--even from childhood apparently.

The problem--and you make some good points--is you have only developed your own tethers, and call many that try to show you your own errors: "Preterists." In fact, you are quite unapproachable, and quickly resort to name-calling. All of which should not be considered very Christian of you.

 

[ScottA]

2. Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming DID NOT HAPPEN IN 70 A.D. Nor has it happened yet to this day. That means it is still a 'future' Bible prophecy!

You can tell that to Stephen when you see him. But he'll surely correct you--for both Jesus and the Father came [again] to him.

But the good news of the gospel of Christ is that since Pentecost we need not pass from this body of flesh for Him to come. As He said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Whenever. Not "past", not "future"--but whenever.

 

[ScottA]

Christ has come and is coming to every believer through His Spirit within us. It seems many shall only believe when they can physically see Him returning when the last trumpet sounds. That makes no sense and doubts Christ when He says He is coming soon, is near, at hand and within whosoever is born again.

John 14:16-20 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Matthew 18:20 (KJV) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Just as Christ and the Father are one, and the Father is in Christ, and Christ is in the Father, so too, through His Spirit in us we are one with Christ, we in Him and He in us. When the Spirit of God dwells in you, it is the same as having Christ dwelling in you. Just as the works of Christ were of the Father in Him, so too, the works we do as believers are the works of Christ, through His Spirit in us.

John 14:10 (KJV) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Romans 8:9-10 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is the clarification that Paul made, saying, "but each one in his own order."

 

[rvmb]

You can tell that to Stephen when you see him. But he'll surely correct you--for both Jesus and the Father came [again] to him.

But the good news of the gospel of Christ is that since Pentecost we need not pass from this body of flesh for Him to come. As He said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Whenever. Not "past", not "future"--but whenever.

"""You can tell that to Stephen when you see him. But he'll surely correct you--for both Jesus and the Father came [again] to him."""
Acts 7:56 ?
Acts 7:56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
**