Pictures of Two Comings

[Marty fox]

Read what I say instead of whatever you imagine me saying. Talk to me instead of your strawman. I never said He comes to the earth. Hello? Paul said we will meet Him "in the air", not on the earth. But, it certainly portrays Jesus as coming down from heaven. Take your preterist glasses off and read the text carefully.

Revelation 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

John sees heaven opened and sees Jesus coming from heaven, after which He then destroys His enemies on the earth. How can you not think that this is a description of the second coming of Christ? Do you not believe that He will come again from heaven and destroy His enemies at that time, as other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 teach?


What do you think, that Revelation 19 is talking about John seeing Jesus in heaven and He just stays there and destroys His enemies from heaven rather than coming down from heaven? Revelation 19:11-21 is clearly a reference to the future second coming of Christ. You have allowed preterism to blind you to the truth of scriptures like this one.


Good grief, Marty. Do you really need scripture to always spell everything out to you? Do you think spiritual discernment is never required? Just because Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't explicitly tell us that Jesus comes down from heaven, it does talk about heaven opening up and then Jesus appearing, after which He destroys His enemies. It's safe to assume that it's talking about the same event as a passage like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 where it talks about Jesus being revealed from heaven and then taking vengeance on His enemies. He is going to descend from heaven at His second coming and then we are going to meet Him in the air and He will then destroy all of His enemies. Do you not believe that? If so, then why in the world would you not think that Revelation 19:11-21 relates to that future event? Just because it doesn't treat you like a little child and explicitly tell you that He comes down from heaven at that time?

You know I love a good bible debate, but it should be done in respect and brotherly love not with sarcastic disrespectful comments like this.

 

[jeffweeder]

You are the one who continues to ignore or deny that the verb in this sentence is in the future tense so it does not happen at the same time as the other events:

These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction

This does not happen at the second coming.

You continue to ignore the obvious as you also favor your own interpretation of Revelation.

ewq said,

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction

These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting judgment when he comes to glorify his people.

10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[Bladerunner]

The ones in Revelation 20:4 are resurrected, martyred for refusing to worship the beast, his mage,or take his mark. The first resurrection of the millennium, Revelation 20:5.


View attachment 80965

My apology, I misquoted Rev 20:4 which was the Martyred Saints. What I was speaking of was found in Mat 25:31-36. the Abraham Covenant at work. The Sheep and Goat Judgement.

 

[ewq1938]

You continue to ignore the obvious as you also favor your own interpretation of Revelation.

It's Greek grammar, not my interpretation. Amill doesn't like certain verb tenses in certain verses...I wonder why? :)

these people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting judgment when he comes to glorify his people.

10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

The future tense verb means that action does not happen at the second coming. The passage speaks of the second coming, then of events in the future, and lastly events of the day of judgement (verse 10). Any interpretation that says all those events are on the same day does not understand Greek grammar, nor is following the context as it changes from one timeframe to the next.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You know I love a good bible debate, but it should be done in respect and brotherly love not with sarcastic disrespectful comments like this.

I don't respect preterism and you are blinded by it. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. Are you using this as an excuse to not defend your interpretation of Revelation 19? Your argument is basically that it doesn't explicitly say that Jesus is descending from heaven, so it must not be about His second coming when He descends from heaven. How am I supposed to take that seriously?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are the one who continues to ignore or deny that the verb in this sentence is in the future tense so it does not happen at the same time as the other events:

These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction

This does not happen at the second coming.

That is future tense as of the time it was written, not future tense from the time that Jesus returns. Jesus was clear in Matthew 25:31-46 that the sentence of everlasting punishment will be given to unbelievers at His second coming.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.....................................................
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ......... 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Marty fox]

I don't respect preterism and you are blinded by it. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. Are you using this as an excuse to not defend your interpretation of Revelation 19? Your argument is basically that it doesn't explicitly say that Jesus is descending from heaven, so it must not be about His second coming when He descends from heaven. How am I supposed to take that seriously?

You don't need to respect a persons position to respect the person

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't need to respect a persons position to respect the person

I do respect you, Marty. I apologize for making it personal. I'm just disappointed that you would interpret Revelation 19 the way preterists do.

Jesus did not come in 70 AD. That was not a coming in judgment by Jesus, that was a coming in judgment by God the Father. That is what Jesus Himself taught.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The king in this parable represents God the Father. He is the one who "sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city" in 70 AD, not His Son.

 

[Marty fox]

It's a coming, for whatever reason but no such event in AD70. The one and only heaven to Earth coming in the clouds is the second coming, which hasn't happened yet.






This did not involve a coming of God though. God stayed in heaven and accomplished this. Same with AD70, no coming.

How about the two parables about the landowners and the kings' son's wedding?

Do you not see that's what apostate Israel did to Jesus and then what God did in return to apostate Israel?

 

[Marty fox]

I do respect you, Marty. I apologize for making it personal. I'm just disappointed that you would interpret Revelation 19 the way preterists do.

Jesus did not come in 70 AD. That was not a coming in judgment by Jesus, that was a coming in judgment by God the Father. That is what Jesus Himself taught.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The king in this parable represents God the Father. He is the one who "sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city" in 70 AD, not His Son.

Thank you for your apology but we won't always agree on every topic, yes we can get frustrated but that's what these sites are for debating our views.

I don't see the latter part of Revelation 19 as the second coming but a symbolic vision of Jesus destroying all of His enemies since the first advent until the end of our world. The clue is that the only weapon used is the sword of His mouth His word which is all powerful and all He needs. There are no other weapons mentioned or anyone else including the saints doing any fighting. Another example and the proof of this was spoken by Jesus in the verse below.

Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Jesus was saying that He may of done the same thing to these people at the time that John wrote revelation not at the second coming

The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire alive thus they are demons who influence nations and their leaders not people as all people will be judged on the great white judgement day before being cast into the lake of fire. Horses are mentioned again symbolic images, and it also states all people great and small free or salve will be killed, thus all unsaved people so no one to rule over for a thousand years. (I'm not sure if you believe in a literal thousand year reigning or not)

Also how would the beast and his armies know where and when Jesus was coming back?

Again, Jesus and the saints are only shown in heaven not on the earth or in the air.

The whole point of Revelation chapter 19 is about the three shouts of Halleluiah in the first section of that chapter for God condemning the great whore, avenging the saints and for the arrival of the wedding of the Lamb.

The wedding of the Lamb is the commencement of the marriage of the Lamb to the church that happened at the first advent and the wedding feast is described as the birds eating all of Gods enemies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you for your apology but we won't always agree on every topic, yes we can get frustrated but that's what these sites are for debating our views.

I'm not frustrated with you, really. We agree on a lot of other things, so I do realize that. My frustration is with preterism itself.

I don't see the latter part of Revelation 19 as the second coming but a symbolic vision of Jesus destroying all of His enemies since the first advent until the end of our world. The clue is that the only weapon used is the sword of His mouth His word which is all powerful and all He needs. There are no other weapons mentioned or anyone else including the saints doing any fighting. Another example and the proof of this was spoken by Jesus in the verse below.

Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Jesus was saying that He may of done the same thing to these people at the time that John wrote revelation not at the second coming

I understand your point, but still disagree. Revelation 19:11-21 is much broader in scope than that, as evidenced by these verses in particular..

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [a]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

This is a description of Jesus destroying all of His enemies ("all people, free and slave, both small and great"), not just some here and there. That reminds me immediately of passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which all portray the wrath of Jesus coming down globally against His enemies.

The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire alive thus they are demons who influence nations and their leaders not people as all people will be judged on the great white judgement day before being cast into the lake of fire. Horses are mentioned again symbolic images, and it also states all people great and small free or salve will be killed, thus all unsaved people so no one to rule over for a thousand years. (I'm not sure if you believe in a literal thousand year reigning or not)

I'm an amillennialist, which I thought you knew. So, no, I do not believe in a literal thousand year reign. What is portrayed in Revelation 19 is "all people" (all unbelievers) being killed at the same time, not over the course of time. Do you believe that Jesus will physically destroy all of His living enemies when He returns in the future? If so, I'm not sure how you would not see Revelation 19:11-21 as describing that.

Also how would the beast and his armies know where and when Jesus was coming back?

The entire passage is symbolic. Taking it literally will only result in confusion. They are not literally aware of where and when Jesus is coming back. It's describing the same thing we see in Revelation 20:7-9. It's the global opposition to Christ and His church that happens during Satan's little season and it's described symbolically as a physical battle in a local location even though it's actually a global spiritual battle in reality that Christ will put an end to when He returns.

Again, Jesus and the saints are only shown in heaven not on the earth or in the air.

This is an argument from silence. Why would heaven be opened if Jesus and the saints just stay there in heaven? I don't believe that makes any sense. Just because it's not explicitly mentioned that He and His angelic and human armies then descend from heaven doesn't mean that doesn't happen at that time. Not all passages about the second coming of Christ contain all of the same details about that event.

Pre-tribs use this kind of argument from silence to try to prove that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 are not the same event since the angels are not mentioned in the former passage. That's not a valid argument. We can't expect every second coming passage to contain every detail about the second coming.

The whole point of Revelation chapter 19 is about the three shouts of Halleluiah in the first section of that chapter for God condemning the great whore, avenging the saints and for the arrival of the wedding of the Lamb.

How can the wedding of the Lamb take place before Jesus returns? I don't believe that makes any sense. The wedding of the Lamb surely will involve all of His people from all-time, so it can't happen until He returns in the future.

The wedding of the Lamb is the commencement of the marriage of the Lamb to the church that happened at the first advent and the wedding feast is described as the birds eating all of Gods enemies.

No. I disagree with this 100%. Were you there? No. Was I there? No. How could you and I and every Christian since then and everyone who becomes a Christian in the future not be part of the event of the marriage of the Lamb to the church and the wedding feast? I don't believe that makes any sense at all.

Read the parable in Matthew 22:1-13 after which Jesus said in verse 14 "Many are called, but few are chosen". Do you not recognize that the parable, describing an invitation by the king to a wedding for his son, represents the offer of salvation that first went out to the Jews and then went out to the Gentiles? That offer is still going out to the world today, right? So, how can you think that what is described in that parable is already fulfilled? No, the invitation to the wedding, representing God's offer of salvation, is still going on today and will continue to do so until Jesus returns and then the wedding between Christ and His full bride (all believers from all time) can take place when He returns. That is portrayed in the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 as well.

 

[Trekson]

Yes, I believe that also! What I don't believe is that the thousand years shall come AFTER Christ returns again. Because when Christ returns when the last/seventh trumpet sounds, the age of eternity shall begin. An age where there shall be no more sin, death, no more dying because all things will be made new.

The 7th trump isn't the "last" trump. The last trump is in the context of the feast of trumpets and most of the events at the 7th trump as written are spoken forward in faith. There is still some time to go.

 

[Trekson]

But it says all people "and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”" they are separated from the armies in the text. The clue is that its not a literal battle as the only weapon mentioned is the sword of Jeus mouth which is His word which is all powerful and all He needs
just like in the verse below.

Revelation 2
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
.

That might be Christ's only weapon but the armies will certainly be firing all kind of missiles at them and bullets at them, but it will be a quick and decisive battle.

 

[Trekson]

Samuel was not in his body when he was summoned from the grave - and I specifically mentioned the fact that scripture tells us that when the body dies, the souls of those who died in Christ, will be with Christ - and He is in the bosom of the Father:



No they do not have bodies. That's not what the passage says. Revelation 19:8 tells you what the white robes symbolize - they are not "literal" robes

- and the fact that they had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held, and are told to rest "yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"

- tells you why John - in a vision - saw those souls under the altar. John was seeing visions. Visions are like dreams - they are not literal and if you take the Revelation up that literally, then you have got lost before you started.

There is also only one day when (as Jesus and Paul and other apostles told us) ALL in the graves will hear His voice and will come forth to the resurrection of the dead and the judgment seat of Christ. The Bible does not contradict itself.

The biblical truth is that God created human beings with A (one) body, A (one) soul, and A (one) spirit. The soul and spirit do not each have their own bodies. The resurrection of the dead is the day all souls will be reunited with their resurrected bodies, and will come before God for the judgment of Christ - and scripture speaks of only ONE day in which this will occur, not two or multiple days separated by 10 X 100 years or more.



Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus - just like the young girl "whose spirit came again" when Jesus raised her from the dead, and what Jesus said in your above reference was in a parable.

Scripture does not tell us whether or not after having been raised from the dead Lazarus and the girl and others who were raised by Jesus - and later those who were raised from the dead by the apostles - died again, or simply vanished. What was important to the apostles and Luke who wrote the records, was the fact that Jesus had power to raise the dead.





Though they may be bodily present in heaven, none of the people you mention are dwelling in unapproachable light - which is in the presence of God - a.k.a heaven or the third heaven (or whatever level it is where God dwells).

You need to balance the assumptions you make with ALL scripture - beginning with the scripture that tells us that Christ alone dwells (bodily) in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see (1 Timothy 6:16); and the scripture that tells us that no man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. (John 1:18).



Not in the third heaven - or in the place of the light which no man can approach unto. Only Christ dwells there - and He has been dwelling there, bodily, ever since His ascension - interceding for us and for all the others you mention in your list.



No they do not. They are before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes (AGAIN, THE WHITE ROBES which symbolize what Revelation 19:8 tells you they symbolize - and this is another vision), and palms in their hands.

Every time God's throne is mentioned in New Testament scripture it's mentioned in connection with the judgment seat of Christ - because God's judgment is as much a part of who God is, as His grace - and these are saved multitudes whom John sees in a vision because their names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Besides the fact that you have forgotten the fact that John is seeing visions that represent realities and should not be taken literally, you have betrayed the fact that you did not make the effort to read diligently to the end of chapter 7. If you did, you would have heard the very same promises being made to those in verse 7 that is being made to those who dwell in New Jerusalem

- which John saw coming down from God out of heaven to the earth in the new heavens and new earth:

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

It's talking about their experience on the earth in the new heavens and new earth.



Israel's judges appointed by God will be governing us - those who had been martyred will be governing us.



How many tribes of Judah (the Jews) are there in the 12 tribes of Israel?

Did Paul identify himself in Romans 11:1 as of the Jews? Or as of one of the 12 tribes?

It's only out of ignorance that anyone calls the twelve tribes of Israel "the Jews".

10 of the 12 tribes ceased being a nation before God (they ceased being a chosen nation before God) in circa 720 BC and were exiled, becoming assimilated with Gentiles and their descendants intermarrying with the Gentiles. You could have Israelite DNA in your ancestry without even knowing it. The restoration of all 12 tribes of Israel takes place in Christ

= no one, Jew or Gentile, who rejects Christ is one of the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned in Revelation 12. God's first promise to Abraham was that he would become the father of a multitude of Gentile nations. God repeated the promise three times when He promised it.

Jacob (Israel), on his death-bed told Joseph that the seed of his son Ephraim would become the fullness of the Gentiles - and Ephraim is the name by which the prophets collectively called the 10 tribes of Israel which were broken off from being a chosen nation before God - or even a nation - after 720 BC. Their restoration is in Christ, and has nothing to do with anyone's ancestral DNA - because God promised Abraham that he would become the father of many Gentile nations.



There will be no mortals left alive (scripture does not contradict itself), and scripture never said WE will ALL be ruling and reigning over anyone - It is the Israelites who the Israelite judges were ruling over / governing after they crossed the Jordan into the promised land.

Only those who have been called - the category of whom is named in scripture - will be ruling - like the Israelite judges - over YOU (you being a part of one of the 12 tribes of Israel, in Christ).

THEY will be governing YOU. YOU and I and @ewq1938 and anyone else who has ever lived in this fantasy of reigning "over mortals" will discover that most of us will not be ruling over anyone - unless you fall into the category of those who are called to rule, and that is the way you meet your death. Some of them went through the most gruesome, gruesome torture and did not deny Christ - so do not be so quick to believe or to hope that you will be among the group of resurrected immortal saints ruling over all the others.

If you do not become part of the judges group, then make sure you do not take part in the rebellion of immortals at the close of the first thousand years of the ages of the ages - because God is able to devour us - body and soul, with fire coming down from God out of heaven - while you are alive and cannot die. Jesus called Gehennah a place where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched".

Your belief in mortals being ruled over in the millennium comes from the same false teaching that influenced the eschatology of pretribulation-rapturism (which is yet another ism).

The robes are real and true prophetic visions are real and Rev. can use symbolism but all the judgements are extremely, literally real and w/o that understanding one can not have a clue to prophecy whatsoever!

 

[Trekson]

He is preparing a place for us there and will bring that place to us. That's why we are going to meet Him in the air and not in heaven. If we were going to be taken to heaven after meeting Him in the air then what would be the point of meeting Him in the air instead of just meeting Him in heaven? No pre-trib has ever been able to give a credible answer to this question and I doubt you will be the first.


Second coming for Israel? Nonsense! Nowhere does scripture teach that. It only ever teaches that He is coming for His church, also known as the elect.

Also, do you not believe the following passages are talking about "His physical 2nd coming"?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

How exactly do you think these passages support a pre-trib rapture? They clearly do not.

Jesus said we would meet Him in the air, If you think he is making an illogical choice, take it up w/ him. Then you have a whole lot of reading to do. The church on earth has an end date, Isreal does not. The DoL isn't just a 2nd coming event and, imo, 2 Pet. is a stand alone scripture that doesn't align w/ the rest of the prophecies about the rapture/second coming but it does align w/ Rev. 20:9. The DoL is over a 1000 yrs. long and contains both curses and blessings.

 

[Trekson]

I think you missed the point that Jeff was making in his post. He referenced 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 because that passage shows the rapture as occurring at the second coming of Christ when He will take vengeance on unbelievers on the same day as the rapture.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

What other day than the day of the rapture will Jesus come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe". No other day, of course. That's a clear reference to the time when we will be gathered to Christ at which point He will "be glorified in His saints and...admired among all those who believe". Paul indicated in this passage that on that same day when the rapture will occur, Jesus will "in flaming fire" take "vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

What you're trying to claim is basically that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 is a different event than 2 Thessalonians 1:10, but Paul makes it clear that what is described in those verses will all happen on the same day. And that is the case for 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 as well.

Imo, that verse is speaking of the trumpet and vial judgements, not the 2nd coming and vs. 10 is speaking of the rapture which is "not" a signless, secret event.

 

[Trekson]

So you favor your interpretation of the book of Revelation, over Paul's straight forward revelation in 2thess?

Feel free to share what you think Paul meant...,

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Chapter one is kind of like a summary that is broken down to more detail in cp. 2 which starts w/ telling us what has to happen before the rapture occurs. The tribulation to the evil is in response to the GT that the church will endure as vs. 1:4 states.

 

[rwb]

The 7th trump isn't the "last" trump. The last trump is in the context of the feast of trumpets and most of the events at the 7th trump as written are spoken forward in faith. There is still some time to go.

What verses prove the seventh trumpet is NOT the last trumpet?

 

[Marty fox]

That might be Christ's only weapon but the armies will certainly be firing all kind of missiles at them and bullets at them, but it will be a quick and decisive battle.

Missiles and bullets the text shows them on horseback obviously its not literal and the text mentions nothing about the armies firing back

 

[Marty fox]

I'm not frustrated with you, really. We agree on a lot of other things, so I do realize that. My frustration is with preterism itself.


I understand your point, but still disagree. Revelation 19:11-21 is much broader in scope than that, as evidenced by these verses in particular..

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [a]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

This is a description of Jesus destroying all of His enemies ("all people, free and slave, both small and great"), not just some here and there. That reminds me immediately of passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which all portray the wrath of Jesus coming down globally against His enemies.


I'm an amillennialist, which I thought you knew. So, no, I do not believe in a literal thousand year reign. What is portrayed in Revelation 19 is "all people" (all unbelievers) being killed at the same time, not over the course of time. Do you believe that Jesus will physically destroy all of His living enemies when He returns in the future? If so, I'm not sure how you would not see Revelation 19:11-21 as describing that.


The entire passage is symbolic. Taking it literally will only result in confusion. They are not literally aware of where and when Jesus is coming back. It's describing the same thing we see in Revelation 20:7-9. It's the global opposition to Christ and His church that happens during Satan's little season and it's described symbolically as a physical battle in a local location even though it's actually a global spiritual battle in reality that Christ will put an end to when He returns.


This is an argument from silence. Why would heaven be opened if Jesus and the saints just stay there in heaven? I don't believe that makes any sense. Just because it's not explicitly mentioned that He and His angelic and human armies then descend from heaven doesn't mean that doesn't happen at that time. Not all passages about the second coming of Christ contain all of the same details about that event.

Pre-tribs use this kind of argument from silence to try to prove that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 are not the same event since the angels are not mentioned in the former passage. That's not a valid argument. We can't expect every second coming passage to contain every detail about the second coming.


How can the wedding of the Lamb take place before Jesus returns? I don't believe that makes any sense. The wedding of the Lamb surely will involve all of His people from all-time, so it can't happen until He returns in the future.


No. I disagree with this 100%. Were you there? No. Was I there? No. How could you and I and every Christian since then and everyone who becomes a Christian in the future not be part of the event of the marriage of the Lamb to the church and the wedding feast? I don't believe that makes any sense at all.

Read the parable in Matthew 22:1-13 after which Jesus said in verse 14 "Many are called, but few are chosen". Do you not recognize that the parable, describing an invitation by the king to a wedding for his son, represents the offer of salvation that first went out to the Jews and then went out to the Gentiles? That offer is still going out to the world today, right? So, how can you think that what is described in that parable is already fulfilled? No, the invitation to the wedding, representing God's offer of salvation, is still going on today and will continue to do so until Jesus returns and then the wedding between Christ and His full bride (all believers from all time) can take place when He returns. That is portrayed in the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 as well.

Paragraph 1-Yes we do agree on a lot thanks

Paragraph 2-Yes I was saying the same thing all of Jesus enemies from the first advent till the end of our world but what about the point that Jesus threatened to come and destroy the ones mentioned in Revelation 2:16?

Revelation 2:16
16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Jesus was saying that He may of done the same thing to these people at the time that John wrote revelation and that if things didn't change He would come soon to those people alive in the first century not at the future second coming thus it isn't a onetime event

Paragraph 3-Yes I did think that you were an amillennialist but I wasn't sure. If your view is right how can Jesus destroy all of His enemies in the future if millions are already dead? Yes Jesus will destroy all of His enemies who are still alive on the earth but with fire at the second coming

Paragraph 4-How is it an argument from silence when the text is silent about anyone leaving heaven? Stephen saw heaven open when he was being killed and Jesus didn't leave heaven then. Its opened just like it was for Stephen so that we can see Jesus glorious in victory.

Paragraph 5-Chapter 19 starts with the mention of the wedding feast and then the remaining part of the chapter shows a feast. I believe that the wedding feast is an ongoing symbolic event and Jesus marring each member of the church when each member is saved.

Paragraph 6-Same as my answer as explained above.

Sorry if my layout is confusing but I'm not sure how on this site how to box in your comments.

In a nutshell the book of Revelation is a message to the seven churches and each event a message of its own. The message is more important than the event. The message in chapter 19 is that Babylon the great (apostate Israel) is judged and now the old covenant is done away with and now the new covenant is with the church made up of both Christ believing Jew and Gentile who are our victorious because of the blood of the Lamb.

God issued a certificate of divorce to Apostate Israel for her being unfaithful to other gods and married the church. Jesus is now victorious over all of His enemies and we reign with Him