Death Penalty: All in Favor? All Opposed?

[Wrangler]

Stoning her to death was the OT law of the Jews. Jesus nullifies that.

Not one little bit is this true. Jesus was talking about her case, not capital punishment, generally.

The Cultural Study Bible NSRV elaborates on the trap set for Jesus. To condemn one of adultery, both participates had to be included. Where was the man? She was supposedly caught in the act. Who was she caught in the act with?

 

[Wrangler]

If it was you or a loved one being wrongly sent to be executed I bet you would oppose the death penalty. True?

I oppose the death penalty. See OP.

 

[Taken]

From the Heritage Foundation, The Death Penalty Is Appropriate.

Comparing and contrasting your post to the Heritage Foundation article, your argument is primarily moral while the Heritage article is primarily legal. This makes the basis FOR capital punishment Circular.

P1. Women should not vote.​

P2. Laws don't allow women to vote.​

C. Women should not vote.​

​

The voting thing… was established under the premise of “a vestment” requirement….
a whole other, but interesting topic

The one moral argument in favor of capital punishment extends from @Taken's post. Life in prison, relegated to essentially solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment, worse than death. This and other arguments both sides assert, such as cost, being a deterrent and Biblical support.

One thing you believe that I disagree with is the chance to repent. IF someone deserves the death penalty where that is the sentence, it is wrong that they live long enough to repent decades later "becoming" a different person. If you punish an animal too long after the wrong doing, they don't connect the punishment with the wrong doing. Karla Faye Tucker - Wikipedia

Death Sentences are prolonged 10-20 years.
Off hand I do not recall “How MANY Appeals they are Allowed, before Appeals are Exhausted and no longer allowed.

There is also a time/frame for MAKING an Appeal… which the prisoner May or May not choose to do (Appeal) at that time… still affording them the number of Appeals until exhausted.

Once all Appeals are exhausted…execution Date is Set… Typically one year following all exhausted Appeals.

The scenario changes dramatically…wondering, hoping, is moot. They shall die.
They can get any of their affairs in order, good byes, repent, etc. OR Not.

As long as a man still has life (blood flow) in his body…God, through Christ will hear a confession of Belief…
And verify it be True or Not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Armour of God]

I already explained. What you and I call murder was not construed as such in OT days

I'm sorry i didn't understand your explanation. Was murder construed as something else back then? Isn't the death penalty still murder? Can you elaborate?

Not one little bit is this true. Jesus was talking about her case, not capital punishment, generally.

The Cultural Study Bible NSRV elaborates on the trap set for Jesus. To condemn one of adultery, both participates had to be included. Where was the man? She was supposedly caught in the act. Who was she caught in the act with?

Ok he doesn't actually mention that but he also says whoever hasn't sinned can throw a stone. There is that part of the story that your missing here. Sinners killing sinners, it's not right

 

[Wrangler]

I'm sorry i didn't understand your explanation. Was murder construed as something else back then? Isn't the death penalty still murder? Can you elaborate?

No. I’ve already elaborated. If you don’t understand, then you don’t understand.

You need to explain. God commanded sinners of Israel to kill those who broke the law. this was NOT construed as murder. How do you explain calling it murder back then? It’s just like the history of the Crusades, where 900 later, people are trying to redefine things.

 

[Button]

I don't believe the death penalty as applied today is a deterrent save for deterring those put to death.

I also disagree with SCOTUS when they judge the DP as applied in different ways is not cruel and unusual punishment. It absolutely is.

Further, the DP is final. If someone is sentenced to prison for years,they have a chance at exoneration if innocent.

Whereas an innocent prisoner on Death row is able to appeal and be set free. And have been.
While execution of the innocent is murder by the State. And who is then charged for that?

I think those whose offense is so aggregious as to warrant the DP are able to be held accountable by a life without parole sentence.
A living death in a horrific environment. And yet, those who are actually not guilty have a chance to prove it.


The DP in Bible times was no more acceptable,imo. And for the same reasons.

It's a curious thing. God commands man not to murder.
But God murdered at will,and led his chosen to murder in his name.
But somehow those campaigns are said to warrant the killing of others. Because, God finds them worthy.

And then we are to believe,God is Love and Omni benevolent.

When he's also Omniscient,he knew he was going to slaughter all those people before they were born as the sinners he created them to be,first.

Faith is quite something,isn't it?

How many think about what they're asked to accept as true of a higher power?

 

[Aunty Jane]

What you and I call murder was not construed as such in OT days.

Interesting topic.....and true...the word used in the 10 Commandments is......”רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er)” (Strongs)

Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life....execution is the sanctioned taking of a life for someone who took the life (lives) of others. God’s Law demanded “a life for a life”.

Under the Law, even one guilty of manslaughter (unintentional killing) still had to have a penalty imposed to demonstrate the sanctity of human life. God gave his people six cities of refuge for those who accidentally or unintentionally took a life. These cities were not prisons, but refuges so that the “avenger of blood” (the nearest male relative to the victim), could not take revenge on the one responsible. Under the Law He was within his rights to avenge the death....after legal process.

Also to be considered was that legal process in tying a case of murder. All wrongdoers had to stand before the Judges appointed in Israel.....only on the testimony of two or more eyewitnesses could a person be convicted of murder or manslaughter. This ruled out anyone taking the law into their own hands....or any false witnesses or testimony.
Please read Numbers 35 for the details on this arrangement.

 

[Armour of God]

only on the testimony of two or more eyewitnesses could a person be convicted of murder or manslaughter

I read that. How easy then was it to conspire with another person against someone. Too easy.
Thank goodness in today's courts they need more than that to prove someone's guilt I think. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is the standard used these days

 

[Lambano]

What is your point?

I want to, as much as possible, restrict my government's power to legally kill its citizens.

 

[Button]

The voting thing… was established under the premise of “a vestment” requirement….
a whole other, but interesting topic





Death Sentences are prolonged 10-20 years.
Off hand I do not recall “How MANY Appeals they are Allowed, before Appeals are Exhausted and no longer allowed.

There is also a time/frame for MAKING an Appeal… which the prisoner May or May not choose to do (Appeal) at that time… still affording them the number of Appeals until exhausted.

Once all Appeals are exhausted…execution Date is Set… Typically one year following all exhausted Appeals.

The scenario changes dramatically…wondering, hoping, is moot. They shall die.
They can get any of their affairs in order, good byes, repent, etc. OR Not.

As long as a man still has life (blood flow) in his body…God, through Christ will hear a confession of Belief…
And verify it be True or Not.

Glory to God,
Taken

"Death row inmates in the U.S. typically undergo multiple, multi-stage appeals over 15-20 years, rather than a fixed number. The process involves at least one automatic direct appeal, state post-conviction reviews, and federal habeas corpus petitions. There is no strict limit on the number of, especially, federal habeas corpus writs. "

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/how-many-appeals-do-criminals-get-for-death-row--168827.html

 

[Armour of God]

View attachment 81441

I don't believe the death penalty as applied today is a deterrent save for deterring those put to death.

I also disagree with SCOTUS when they judge the DP as applied in different ways is not cruel and unusual punishment. It absolutely is.

Further, the DP is final. If someone is sentenced to prison for years,they have a chance at exoneration if innocent.

Whereas an innocent prisoner on Death row is able to appeal and be set free. And have been.
While execution of the innocent is murder by the State. And who is then charged for that?

I think those whose offense is so aggregious as to warrant the DP are able to be held accountable by a life without parole sentence.
A living death in a horrific environment. And yet, those who are actually not guilty have a chance to prove it.


The DP in Bible times was no more acceptable,imo. And for the same reasons.

It's a curious thing. God commands man not to murder.
But God murdered at will,and led his chosen to murder in his name.
But somehow those campaigns are said to warrant the killing of others. Because, God finds them worthy.

And then we are to believe,God is Love and Omni benevolent.

When he's also Omniscient,he knew he was going to slaughter all those people before they were born as the sinners he created them to be,first.

Faith is quite something,isn't it?

How many think about what they're asked to accept as true of a higher power?

On the other thread I said capital punishment was barbaric.
You then falsely accused me of calling God barbaric and for attacking America.
Now your actually agreeing with me in opposing capital punishment.
I don't understand why you made those false accusations to begin with

 

[Aunty Jane]

I read that. How easy then was it to conspire with another person against someone. Too easy.

Yes indeed...look what happened to Jesus. On the night he was arrested, they held an illegal trial on Passover night. They tried to get false witnesses to testify against him but that didn’t work. Even in this false charge, to the humiliation of the Sanhedrin, the witnesses cannot make their stories agree. So the high priest tried a different tactic.

Caiaphas knows how sensitive Jews are about anyone claiming to be the very Son of God. On two earlier occasions, they had rashly labeled Jesus a blasphemer worthy of death, once having mistakenly imagined that he was claiming to be equal to God. (which he never did) They just claimed that calling God his Father was blasphemous.
Caiaphas now craftily demands: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”

Regardless of what the Jews think, Jesus really is “the Son of God”. (John 10:36) And to remain silent could be construed as a denial of his being the Christ. So Jesus courageously replied... “I am; and you persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

At this, Caiaphas, in a dramatic display, rips his garments and exclaims: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now you have heard the blasphemy. What is your opinion?”

“He is liable to death,” the Sanhedrin proclaims. Then they begin to make fun of him, and they say many things in blasphemy against him. They slap his face and spit into it.....Jesus’ fate is sealed.

This stresses how just and unbiased the legal system has to be....if true justice is to be served....can anyone guarantee such a legal system in a world ruled by the devil? (1 John 5:19) Can you give someone back their life once you have taken it?

Thank goodness in today's courts they need more than that to prove someone's guilt I think. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is the standard used these days

Even then, today’s technology can be used as evidence against someone, but it’s an AI fake. Deception is now beyond anything the devil had to offer in previous eras....people can’t tell the difference between what is real and what isn’t anymore.

A corrupt system in a corrupt world....where is the justice when people can imagine a God of Love roasting souls alive in an eternal fire, screaming in agony forever.....and feeling good about that?

 

[Armour of God]

Yes indeed...look what happened to Jesus. On the night he was arrested, they held an illegal trial on Passover night. They tried to get false witnesses to testify against him but that didn’t work. Even in this false charge, to the humiliation of the Sanhedrin, the witnesses cannot make their stories agree. So the high priest tried a different tactic.

Caiaphas knows how sensitive Jews are about anyone claiming to be the very Son of God. On two earlier occasions, they had rashly labeled Jesus a blasphemer worthy of death, once having mistakenly imagined that he was claiming to be equal to God. (which he never did) They just claimed that calling God his Father was blasphemous.
Caiaphas now craftily demands: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”

Regardless of what the Jews think, Jesus really is “the Son of God”. (John 10:36) And to remain silent could be construed as a denial of his being the Christ. So Jesus courageously replied... “I am; and you persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

At this, Caiaphas, in a dramatic display, rips his garments and exclaims: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now you have heard the blasphemy. What is your opinion?”

“He is liable to death,” the Sanhedrin proclaims. Then they begin to make fun of him, and they say many things in blasphemy against him. They slap his face and spit into it.....Jesus’ fate is sealed.

This stresses how just and unbiased the legal system has to be....if true justice is to be served....can anyone guarantee such a legal system in a world ruled by the devil? (1 John 5:19) Can you give someone back their life once you have taken it?

Even then, today’s technology can be used as evidence against someone, but it’s an AI fake. Deception is now beyond anything the devil had to offer in previous eras....people can’t tell the difference between what is real and what isn’t anymore.

A corrupt system in a corrupt world....where is the justice when people can imagine a God of Love roasting souls alive in an eternal fire, screaming in agony forever.....and feeling good about that?

True. One of my arguments on this thread was that our justice system is prone to error and corruption. It's going to wrongfully convicted people here and there.

But I didn't even consider AI deception. One can't even trust video evidence anymore. It's scary

 

[stevesonthebay]

Ultimately sinners will be judged at the end of time. The bible says the wages of sin is death. I would say this death is far greater than physical death.

But I am not sure how Gods judgement works under Christs covenant as far as this temporal life on earth. I know if someone lives a sinful life they have more chance suffering bad consequences including death.

I think God uses the institutions on earth to keep law and order. Paul mentions obeying the rulers and authorities. Peter mentions obeying authority even if it may seem unjust.

Its a hard one and I would not like to be in the position to decide or pull the level.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ultimately sinners will be judged at the end of time. The bible says the wages of sin is death. I would say this death is far greater than physical death.

From a purely Scriptural perspective, “the wages sin pays” is exactly what God told Adam....

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:16-17 ESV)

The OT does not teach a “heaven or hell” scenario, but the Jews believed in a future resurrection, which was a restoration of life, once the Kingdom of God was ruling the world...to them, death was a cessation of life, not a continuation of it.

But I am not sure how Gods judgement works under Christs covenant as far as this temporal life on earth. I know if someone lives a sinful life they have more chance suffering bad consequences including death.

We are all under the condemnation of death due to inheriting Adam’s defective DNA. So, no one can avoid the sentence. Gen 3:22-24 however, informs us of what would have happened if Adam and his wife had simply obeyed God’s reasonable command....not to eat from the one tree that God had claimed as his own property.

“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (ESV)

There were two trees in the garden of Eden....eating the fruit of one would cause death...but the other would result in everlasting life. Opposites....the choice made by our first parents condemned us to a temporal life, when God designed it to be everlasting....their disobedience, and the theft of God’s stated property resulted in their eviction from the paradise they called home, and led to the trouble filled life we have until this day.

God sent his son to pay for our release from that debt......the price has been paid, but many things had to fulfill prophesy before we enjoyed the promised restoration, soon to come.

The majority of Christians on earth today will not go to heaven because only a specific number are to assist Jesus in his role as King/Priest (Rev 20:6) these “chosen ones” (saints...elect) will rule redeemed mankind on earth and restore to the human race what God first purposed for them in the beginning....everlasting life in paradise on earth.
That is what I look forward to....

I think God uses the institutions on earth to keep law and order. Paul mentions obeying the rulers and authorities. Peter mentions obeying authority even if it may seem unjust.

Without some kind of rulership, anarchy would prevail and life would be even more chaotic than it is now.
God permits humans to rule themselves but they are not terribly good at it....their track record down through history is appalling......once you give humans power over other humans, corruption soon follows. That is evidence of the sin in us.....we were designed to have God’s rulership because he is incorruptible.

Its a hard one and I would not like to be in the position to decide or pull the level.

No one wants capital punishment, but it was part of God’s law under certain circumstances.
Execution is not murder, and the death penalty still applies in some countries, but the legal system is corrupt and expensive as we see in all nations.....another gift from the devil....(1 John 5:19) we do well to stay out of the politics....

 

[Lambano]

From an ACLU study that can be found here:

Key findings in the report include:​

• Official misconduct from police or prosecutors, including coercing witnesses, concealing exculpatory evidence, falsifying reports, or condoning perjury, is the single most common factor in wrongful death penalty convictions, and particularly for Black exonerees. The report highlights certain counties notorious for this type of misconduct.
• False testimony or perjury occurs in nearly 70 percent of wrongful death penalty cases, and it is the single most common factor for Black and Latino exonerees.
• Eyewitness misidentification has contributed to one in five wrongful death penalty convictions. Misidentifications are especially likely when the witness and suspect are of different races.
• Unreliable forensic evidence plays a role in roughly one in three exonerations. Many discredited forensic techniques like bite mark and hair analysis continue to be used in death penalty cases and lead to wrongful convictions.
• Racial bias in jury selection stacks the deck against defendants. Death qualification and racial bias that leads to the exclusion of Black jurors produce conviction-prone juries that do not represent the community.

 

[Lambano]

Official misconduct from police or prosecutors, including coercing witnesses, concealing exculpatory evidence, falsifying reports, or condoning perjury, is the single most common factor in wrongful death penalty convictions, and particularly for Black exonerees. The report highlights certain counties notorious for this type of misconduct. False testimony or perjury occurs in nearly 70 percent of wrongful death penalty cases, and it is the single most common factor for Black and Latino exonerees.

18 And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 19:18-19)

 

[Taken]

"Death row inmates in the U.S. typically undergo multiple, multi-stage appeals over 15-20 years, rather than a fixed number. The process involves at least one automatic direct appeal, state post-conviction reviews, and federal habeas corpus petitions. There is no strict limit on the number of, especially, federal habeas corpus writs. "

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/how-many-appeals-do-criminals-get-for-death-row--168827.html

Likely so. Appeals are a lengthy complex, messy process involving different courts, attorneys, judges, witnesses, evidence, blah, blah…years after the fact…
I think…an Appeal simply stays the execution, hoping to lead to pronouncing the original trial a mistrial to retry in another trial.
Also think…the whole process… is taxpayer funded.

Some inmates can skip the whole process and request their sentence be swiftly carried out.

Some will deny they are the killer, because they were not for example, the one who actually pulled the trigger.

Whole ordeal is a bad scene.

 

[lforrest]

It should be a decision for society to make, based on rather we can afford the expense of confining people for their whole life if they are too dangerous to release into society.

I would prefer if we had the luxury of not needing to execute criminals. But if the alternative is to release capital offences back into society they must die.

Perhaps sitting in prison will give someone a chance to repent and come to Jesus.

 

[Armour of God]

It should be a decision for society to make, based on rather we can afford the expense of confining people for their whole life if they are too dangerous to release into society

The cost is about the same as trials for death penalty go on for decades and the cost of keeping someone on death row is much more expensive than keeping them in general population.
See a more detailed explanation in the argument I made on the 1st page

But if the alternative is to release capital offences back into society they must die.

Release isnt an option. Imprisonment is the other alternative. That keeps society safe from criminals

Perhaps sitting in prison will give someone a chance to repent and come to Jesus.

That's one of the reasons I gave as well. Like Paul was punished with blindness and made him turn to Christ the same happens with inmates, they can repent and turn to Christ.