ISLAM IS NOT THE REVELATION BEAST

[The Light]

No, you did not. Why are you lying?

You are quick to call everyone liars................Except the ones that lie. You hold your tongue then.

I asked you on January 21, 2026.

Do you think the Chosen People are the Jews.?

I asked my question first in post #24 and you asked your question in response to that post in post #26 without answering my question.

See above.

You never answered the question I asked originally in post #24. If you answer it, then I'll answer your question. That's how this works.

That's how it works? That's what I thought.

 

[The Light]

As an adult you laugh instead of showing me which verse contains the 2nd harpazo.

Did you read any of the verses or did you just do a search on verses with harpazo?

I thought it was humorous and warranted a laugh.

If there are only 13 other occurrences of it, if a 2nd one exists..it must be one of those. But you are correct when you said you looked up the first 4 and they were a waste of time. So were the other 9. That is because a second rapture doesn't exist.

You can't even find the pretrib rapture. I'm not expecting you to find the second rapture.

You are adding to the Bible. When Paul gave us the mystery of the living also being changed at the last trumpet, he gave us the sequence.

What did I add? You can tell me when you think the rapture is and yet you deny this verse.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The dead rise first.
Then....the next in sequence
those who are alive and have survived the calamity will also be changed. There is no room for a 2nd rapture. Scripture doesn't provide it, Paul doesn't provide it. Christ didn't provide it and of the 14 occurrences, its not provided there either.

These verses are the rapture of the Church. The Lord Himself comes for His bride. He comes at the trump of God or voice of God. The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain. The dead are in the clouds waiting for the alive.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here is the second rapture. The dead and alive are changed at the exact same time at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. This occurs at the 6th seal.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Otherwise, its for you to prove it exist with the word harpazo in whatever verse you think it is with it in perfect context. Please show us.

There are two folds. There are two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Davy]

You said:
"That is why in Christ's future Millennium reign with His elect, why Satan will not be allowed to deceive the 'unsaved' nations in that time. It is so the unsaved then will have eyes to see, and ears to hear, with nothing influencing their understanding in order to believe, or not believe."

I'm sorry but that is what the "day" of salvation is. Satan is currently bound (limited) in his power to prevent the working of the Holy Spirit. " NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION".

No, Satan is not yet bound today. That is a man-made doctrine. Lord Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, but that was in order to officially judge Satan to perish, not lock him in chains in the pit per Revelation 20. The events of Revelation 20 have not yet begun today.

But soon God will give satan his " 15 minutes of fame" ( most likely 5 months). The rabbis want you to believe this event won't happen until "their" kingdom comes to an end after " a thousand years ". But God's Word prevails over the jews book, the talmud.

That is only partially true, because it will be at the 'end' of this PRESENT world just prior... to Christ's future return when Satan will play the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem, working great signs and miracles to the deceive the whole world, as written. Just the Biblical fact that is written that he will deceive the whole world except... Christ's elect, shows you that will be for this present world, and not after Christ's future "thousand years" reign. (See Rev.13:4-8)

We MUST understand that Satan is currently deceiving the unsaved world and we need to trust in Jesus NOW. When He comes it will be too late.

Revelation 1:7 :
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen!

And AMEN. That's it. No more chances. We have been warned for thousands of years already.

Too late for whom when Jesus comes? For those unsaved that NEVER heard The Gospel of Jesus Christ? For believers on Christ that will be part of the great falling away that Apostle Paul warned about in 2 Thess.2?

Because you are obviously lacking in your study of The Old Testament prophets, you do not yet understand what Christ's future "thousand years" reign is for. Preachers that keep trying to say if one who does not believe on Jesus Christ 'during' this present world will perish in the future lake of fire just don't know what they are saying, because by their doing that they are placing themselves in Christ's future Judgment Seat. Jesus Christ ONLY is judge of a soul to perish at the lake of fire after His Millennial reign.

Furthermore, if one during this present world NEVER had opportunity to even hear The Gospel, as it is in foreign Islamic and even Communist nations, that means they have yet to have their 'chance'.

 

[No Pre-TB]

There are two folds. There are two raptures.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Did you miss the part he says there will be 1 fold? There exists a fold. And the others not part of that fold will be brought into it. Not 2 harpazos.

Again, where is the scripture that shows a second harpazo? Focus on that point first please.

What verse youre pulling from should have the word "harpazo" in it and the context should show those alive "harpazod". Can you do that?

 

[The Light]

Did you miss the part he says there will be 1 fold? There exists a fold. And the others not part of that fold will be brought into it. Not 2 harpazos.

Again, where is the scripture that shows a second harpazo? Focus on that point first please.

What verse youre pulling from should have the word "harpazo" in it and the context should show those alive "harpazod". Can you do that?

You must have missed the part where the Lord said He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him. This is the first fold and is todays Church. Other sheep that are not of the first fold, them must He also bring. These two folds become one-fold and are the great multitude of Revelation 7.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are quick to call everyone liars................Except the ones that lie. You hold your tongue then.

I asked you on January 21, 2026.

Do you think the Chosen People are the Jews.?

LOL! Look at what you were responding to there. I asked you the question first even before then! Hello?! Wow! You are truly unbelievable. So, even going back to that time I still asked you my question first. This is what I said at that time that you responded to:

Do you not think you are one of God's Chosen?

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Do you think "those whom God has chosen" refers to those who live in modern day Israel?

You responded with a question instead of answering my questions. So, again, answer my questions first and then I'll answer yours. That's how this works.

See above.

That's how it works? That's what I thought.

You are making a complete fool of yourself here. You should be embarrassed. My questions aren't hard. Just answer them and then I'll answer yours. Very simple.

 

[No Pre-TB]

You must have missed the part where the Lord said He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him. This is the first fold and is todays Church. Other sheep that are not of the first fold, them must He also bring. These two folds become one-fold and are the great multitude of Revelation 7.

Ok, so you believe John 10:16 is a rapture verse? It has no harpazo in it and there exists no living ascending, no last trumpet, no coming in the clouds of heaven....there is not anything here that even eludes to a resurrection here.

Instead, we have Christ teaching that he was sent to Israel to which those there that believed first were the first fold. The other sheep that are not part of this fold that need to be brought in are the Gentiles as John 7:35 shows:

Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

In Romans 11 it says, thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them

Who is grafted into who? If the Gentiles are grafted into an already existing Olive tree, who is that already existing tree which some of the original branches, not all, are broken off?

 

[Davy]

Keep your focus on end time JERUSALEM brethren in Christ.

JERUSALEM is where the real... Antichrist will show up as a pseudo-Christ, to mimic our Lord Jesus.

Some Churches today are NOT keeping God's written Word that reveals the above Biblical facts.

Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:23-26 revealed the Antichrist's identity as a 'pseudo-Christ', and commanded us that if we hear someone come up to us and say something like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", to not believe it. Jesus warned that if they say, "He is in the secret chambers", don't believe it.

And Lord Jesus also warned in that same Scripture about that coming false one working great signs and wonders on earth that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, would deceive even His "very elect." Christ's very elect are chosen, and sealed by The Holy Spirit and shown who that coming Antichrist is, and they cannot fall away nor be deceived. By that Lord Jesus was revealing just how powerful in deception the miracle working by that false-Messiah will be. Consider what those great signs and wonders will do to those not sealed by The Holy Spirit.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was warning us about that same... pseudo-Christ Jesus warned us about. That pseudo-Christ will fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of setting up an IDOL abomination at the future new stone temple in Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You must have missed the part where the Lord said He knows His sheep and His sheep know Him.

That was said in direct relation only to Jewish believers. Jesus did not have any Gentile followers yet when He said that.

This is the first fold and is todays Church.

Wrong. The first fold consisted of Jewish believers like the disciples. They were the only sheep/followers Jesus had when He said that. The other fold consists of Gentile believers. A vast majority of Christians understand this, and, yet, you can't even discern something so simple that every Christian should understand. Unbelievable.

Other sheep that are not of the first fold, them must He also bring. These two folds become one-fold and are the great multitude of Revelation 7.

No, the one fold is the same as the "one new man" and "one body" consisting of Jew and Gentile believers together in the church. You are WAY off base here. You need to ask God for wisdom about this (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keep your focus on end time JERUSALEM brethren in Christ.

Yes, because that is what scripture teaches. Wait, no, it doesn't. It says to keep our focus on JESUS and on being spiritually aware of attempts to deceive us.

JERUSALEM is where the real... Antichrist will show up as a pseudo-Christ, to mimic our Lord Jesus.

Some Churches today are NOT keeping God's written Word that reveals the above Biblical facts.

Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:23-26 revealed the Antichrist's identity as a 'pseudo-Christ', and commanded us that if we hear someone come up to us and say something like, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", to not believe it. Jesus warned that if they say, "He is in the secret chambers", don't believe it.

And Lord Jesus also warned in that same Scripture about that coming false one working great signs and wonders on earth that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, would deceive even His "very elect." Christ's very elect are chosen, and sealed by The Holy Spirit and shown who that coming Antichrist is, and they cannot fall away nor be deceived. By that Lord Jesus was revealing just how powerful in deception the miracle working by that false-Messiah will be. Consider what those great signs and wonders will do to those not sealed by The Holy Spirit.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul was warning us about that same... pseudo-Christ Jesus warned us about. That pseudo-Christ will fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of setting up an IDOL abomination at the future new stone temple in Jerusalem.

How can some "future new stone temple in Jerusalem" be "the temple of God"? Impossible. The temple of God is always a temple that God dwells in and He would never dwell in some "future new stone temple in Jerusalem".

Also, scripture says that the term antichrist applies to many people. Specifically those who deny Christ. Not just one person.

 

[Davy]

Yes, because that is what scripture teaches. Wait, no, it doesn't. It says to keep our focus on JESUS and on being spiritually aware of attempts to deceive us.

You can't protect yourself from being deceived if you do not first know what Lord Jesus warned us about per His signs leading up to His future coming.

Your example of "attempts" might as well be speaking up in the air, as they give no direction about the deceptions Jesus warned the Church about for the end, or don't you realize why Lord Jesus gave His 'faithful' Church all those signs in His Book of Revelation?

How can some "future new stone temple in Jerusalem" be "the temple of God"? Impossible. The temple of God is always a temple that God dwells in and He would never dwell in some "future new stone temple in Jerusalem".

So you got that false idea from the "synagogue of Satan" huh? That's their comeback about that "temple of God" phrase in 2 Thess.2:4.

The deceived Jews in Jerusalem will worship the coming FALSE-MESSIAH that appears in Jerusalem first, so the 3rd temple they will build they will believe... it is the TRUE temple of God, just like they will wrongly believe that FALSE-MESSIAH is the TRUE Messiah.

And you well understand this point, so I don't know why you are trying to protect those false-Jews in today's Jerusalem that will be instrumental in setting all that up in our near future.

 

[Mosheli]

Firstly, I am a Protestant Christian. My ancestors came to the Americas in the 1600's from France, having been under the persecutions against French Huguenots in France by the Catholic Church. And as much as I disagree with Radical Islam, I still am not deceived into thinking Islam represents the Revelation beast for the end times.

Per the signs of the end that Lord Jesus gave His Church in His Olivet discourse, the Revelation beast will operate from Jerusalem, not Europe, and not Mecca.

Below Lord Jesus was speaking of signs that happen at the end of this world just prior to His return...

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

That sign of the "abomination of desolation" idol to be setup per the Book of Daniel is to happen in JUDEA. That means JERUSALEM. It is one of the signs Jesus gave about the future "great tribulation", so it has not yet happened today, as the "great tribulation" is still in our near future.

Lord Jesus then in that same Matthew 24 Chapter gave the following sign about the coming of a false-Christ to Jerusalem, which is who He was pointing to that will cause the "abomination of desolation" idol to stand in that "holy place", in Jerusalem, meaning a new stone temple.

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

Lord Jesus gave us the warning that if someone comes up to you in that time and says something like, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", then do not believe it. Why? Because that will be a FALSE-CHRIST.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The above "false Christs" phrase Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance translated the Greek word pseudochristos as 'a spurious Messiah', meaning a singular false-Christ, or false-Messiah.

And there is your first MAJOR CLUE that the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah is NOT going to come from Islam, but instead from among the Jews.

And the reason is simple. It is because in order for that pseudo-Christ to mimic Lord Jesus Christ, and that is what his game will be about, he must simulate his origins being from the tribe of Judah, and of the house of David. No one born of Ishmael (Arabs) following Islam can mimic that.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

And just in case the reader didn't quite get His meaning, Lord Jesus repeated His warning about that coming pseudo-Christ, for us to not believe that false one who comes first will be Jesus.

Apostle Paul gave this same warning in 2 Thessalonians 2...

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

That is the same subject Lord Jesus was warning about, a coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem that will sit in a new stone temple built there for the end, and proclaim himself as GOD. Paul in that same Chapter repeats the sign Jesus gave about that future false one in Jerusalem working the great signs, wonders, and miracles to deceive the world with.

Then Lord Jesus gave the Church even more information about that coming false-Christ, in His Book of Revelation He sent through His servant John...

Rev 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
KJV

That is about the false-Christ Jesus warned us about for the end. He is that "another beast", a 2nd beast representing the idea of the 'beast king'. In Revelation 13:1, the first beast is about a kingdom beast that comes up out of the sea of peoples. In Revelation 17:15 Lord Jesus defined that sea of waters to mean peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. That 1st beast is to have ten horns (ten kings), seven heads (earthly power zones), and ten crowns.

And per Revelation 17, in the last verse, we are told the Babylon Harlot symbolic "woman" is a "great city". And per Revelation 11:8 we are shown that "great city" is about JERUSALEM for the end.

What this means for Islam is that it will be subject to the one-world beast religion just like deceived Christian brethren will be also, and all other religions too. Or didn't you notice Apostle Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that the coming false-Christ will exalt himself over ALL THAT IS WORSHIPED, OR THAT IS CALLED GOD?

What is going on today between Iran, Israel, and the Christian West are simply moves towards the coming "one world government" in prep for the coming false-Christ to reign from Jerusalem.

I agree that Islam is not the Revelation 1st beast, and probably not the 2nd beast either (though the ram is similar to Baphomet/Mahomet).

But I don't agree that the beast operates from Jerusalem. The man sitting in the temple and the abomination in the holy place may only be incidents of part of the beast's over all activities.

I don't agree that the great city Babylon is the same as the great city Jerusalem. More likely it is Rome or similar. Both cities have 7 hills. The city overseeing global world trade in Revelation is more like the Vatican than Jerusalem (though some do believe the Zionists are the Globalists). Rome not Jerusalem is responsible for martyrdoms and wars and adultery with nations kings, dressed in scarlet, etc. There are a few cities called great in the bible (Resen, Gibeon, Jerusalem, and Nineveh, plus Ephron). The harlot is called Babylon like Rome seemingly was in the NT.

I agree that the 2nd earth lamb dragon beast might be Jewish (false messiah). The 2 ram's horns (shofars?) could be a messianic symbol (2 messiahs, royal and priestly?) The lamb/ram is messianic. Though the dragon is not messianic/Jewish. The beast comes from the earth like Adam.
But I don't think the 1st sea beast is likely to be Jewish. I find it hard to believe that the gentile world would accept a Jewish messiah and hard to believe the Jews would accept a gentile one. As you pointed out he comes from the sea which some believe means peoples/nations.
(I also thought the 'AC' would be the 1st beast not the 2nd beast?)

As to the beast/antichrist simulating being from Judah and David, that is possible if the AC is Jewish or part-Jewish, but we note that the nazis had an analogous master race version of the biblical chosen people, so it might not necessarily mean the AC has to be Jewish. Some sources suggest the AC will be from the mixed tribe of Dan since that tribe is missing from the 12 tribes in Revelation. So maybe the AC will be part Danite Jewish.

 

[Davy]

I agree that Islam is not the Revelation 1st beast, and probably not the 2nd beast either (though the ram is similar to Baphomet/Mahomet).

But I don't agree that the beast operates from Jerusalem. The man sitting in the temple and the abomination in the holy place may only be incidents of part of the beast's over all activities.

The 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is a kingdom. It's the 2nd beast, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward that represents the beast king. Many forget the concept of the beast involves both a kingdom and a king.

God's Word, especially Revelation, reveals that beast king will be Satan himself, in Jerusalem, on earth, in plain sight, playing God. This idea is difficult for many to accept, seeing how men's doctrines are so much more popular than what the written Word of God actually teaches. Even because Rev.13:18 says about that "another beast" (king), that the number of the beast is a number of a "man", the majority believe that means he must be a flesh-born man. They are not able to understand that the idea of 'man' is also the image likeness of God and the angels per Genesis 1:26-27, that it originates from God's Own outward Likeness.

All the following Revelation Scriptures are about Satan himself as the beast king who will come to earth, in OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight, and play God in Jerusalem...

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
KJV

Satan is that "angel of the bottomless pit." Note it says he is a "king".


Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

The above links Satan himself as that 2nd beast of Rev.13, and that he will ascend out of the bottomless pit (i.e., for the "great tribulation" timing). He will kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem once they finish their 1260 days of prophesying against the beast.


Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

That title of "dragon" is another title for Satan, per Rev.12:9. Note that is saying they worshipped the dragon, and not just the beast kingdom. That means the deceived will worship Satan, literally. But the majority who do will not know it is Satan.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

That will be the coming Antichrist, Satan himself in Jerusalem, the place where our Heavenly Father chose to put His Name there forever. That's why Satan specifically covets that location.


Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

Again, that is Satan that will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and eventually go into perdition in the future lake of fire. Those who are deceived will "wonder" at him.

Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
KJV

That also is about Satan, the "another beast", the "dragon", as he will be the 7th beast king for the end of this world, and also the 8th beast king for after Christ's future "thousand years" when he will be loosed from his pit prison one more time, to go tempt the unsaved nations after they have been taught for the "thousand years."

Rev 17:12-13
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
KJV

That "beast" in those 12th and 13th verses are about Satan as the beast king, the "little horn" description in the Book of Daniel that will come up among the ten kings.

 

[Mosheli]

The 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is a kingdom. It's the 2nd beast, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward that represents the beast king. Many forget the concept of the beast involves both a kingdom and a king.

God's Word, especially Revelation, reveals that beast king will be Satan himself, in Jerusalem, on earth, in plain sight, playing God. This idea is difficult for many to accept, seeing how men's doctrines are so much more popular than what the written Word of God actually teaches. Even because Rev.13:18 says about that "another beast" (king), that the number of the beast is a number of a "man", the majority believe that means he must be a flesh-born man. They are not able to understand that the idea of 'man' is also the image likeness of God and the angels per Genesis 1:26-27, that it originates from God's Own outward Likeness.

All the following Revelation Scriptures are about Satan himself as the beast king who will come to earth, in OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight, and play God in Jerusalem...

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
KJV

Satan is that "angel of the bottomless pit." Note it says he is a "king".


Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

The above links Satan himself as that 2nd beast of Rev.13, and that he will ascend out of the bottomless pit (i.e., for the "great tribulation" timing). He will kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem once they finish their 1260 days of prophesying against the beast.


Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

That title of "dragon" is another title for Satan, per Rev.12:9. Note that is saying they worshipped the dragon, and not just the beast kingdom. That means the deceived will worship Satan, literally. But the majority who do will not know it is Satan.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

That will be the coming Antichrist, Satan himself in Jerusalem, the place where our Heavenly Father chose to put His Name there forever. That's why Satan specifically covets that location.


Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

Again, that is Satan that will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and eventually go into perdition in the future lake of fire. Those who are deceived will "wonder" at him.

Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
KJV

That also is about Satan, the "another beast", the "dragon", as he will be the 7th beast king for the end of this world, and also the 8th beast king for after Christ's future "thousand years" when he will be loosed from his pit prison one more time, to go tempt the unsaved nations after they have been taught for the "thousand years."

Rev 17:12-13
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
KJV

That "beast" in those 12th and 13th verses are about Satan as the beast king, the "little horn" description in the Book of Daniel that will come up among the ten kings.

But Revelation 19:20 says "the two of them (the beast and the false prophet) were thrown into the fiery lake" (NIV I haven't checked other translations to make sure).
Which implies both 1st sea beast and 2nd earth beast are humans not the 1st one a kingdom and 2nd one a king/messiah.
The word beast is also a little beast....
Though I agree that the 10 heads and 7 horns and 3 parts (lion, bear, leopard) may symbolize a kingdom.

The dragon is Satan (I agree) and gives power to the 1st sea beast (Rev 13:2), so Satan can't be the same as the 1st sea beast, and he seemingly can't be same as 2nd earth beast who causes world to worship the 1st beast. The number of the beast-man is number of 1st sea beast not of the 2nd earth beast.
Abaddon/Apollyon rises from the bottomless pit (before the 2 beasts of Rev 13), but Satan is not in the pit until the millenium?
(Not sure the beast of Rev 13 is same as beast ridden by harlot in Rev 17 as there are some differences? Though it is similar with 7 heads and 10 horns.)

 

[Davy]

But Revelation 19:20 says "the two of them (the beast and the false prophet) were thrown into the fiery lake" (NIV I haven't checked other translations to make sure).
Which implies both 1st sea beast and 2nd earth beast are humans not the 1st one a kingdom and 2nd one a king/messiah.

Will any flesh-born man be judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" prior... the Great White Throne Judgment after the future Millennium reign by Christ? Look at Revelation 20. The answer is NO.

What does that mean for the "false prophet" and "beast" of Revelation 19:20 that perish in the "lake of fire" on the "day of the Lord" at Christ's return prior... to the start of the Millennium?

It means those are ROLES, like in a play, which Satan will play. Many scholars assign the "false prophet" to that "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 when the "another beast" is describing the coming false-Messiah who will work miracles on earth and play God, and persecute the saints and reign over all nations for 42 months, which back in Rev.13:4 refers to the "dragon" the world will worship. That "another beast" is coming to mimic Lord Jesus Christ, and Lord Jesus was known as a Prophet also. Satan will thus play the false prophet role. Then notice Rev.19:20 excludes the "dragon" (Satan) from going into the lake of fire just yet on that day of Christ's coming.

Only Satan and his angels so far today have already been judged and sentenced to perish. That's why the "son of perdition" is one of Satan's titles. And that is why he is that beast that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and goes into perdition (i.e., perishes in the lake of fire after the "thousand years").

The other problem with those who have yet to understand this, is they allow their carnal flesh thinking to get in the way. They even wrongly equate the image of man as being only for those in the flesh, when the image of man actually originated from God's Own Image Likeness per Genesis 1.

The word beast is also a little beast....
Though I agree that the 10 heads and 7 horns and 3 parts (lion, bear, leopard) may symbolize a kingdom.

Many don't consider it, but I think probably the most vivid image that God gave us about the idea of the 'beast' meaning also a literal king is with the example of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4. God caused Neb to have a disease that made him live like a beast among the wild animals. Another picture of that word 'beast' being used for Satan's host is the "brute beast" analogy Apostles Peter and Jude used in 2 Peter 2:12 and Jude 10 for the children of darkness.

The dragon is Satan (I agree) and gives power to the 1st sea beast (Rev 13:2), so Satan can't be the same as the 1st sea beast, and he seemingly can't be same as 2nd earth beast who causes world to worship the 1st beast. The number of the beast-man is number of 1st sea beast not of the 2nd earth beast.

You didn't notice the Rev.13:4 verse says, "And they worshipped the dragon..."?

The deceived will worship both. The "dragon" will be the "man of sin" Paul warned us about, and the pseudo-Christ that Jesus warned us about that will place the "abomination of desolation" in the Jerusalem temple.

Abaddon/Apollyon rises from the bottomless pit (before the 2 beasts of Rev 13), but Satan is not in the pit until the millenium?

The idea that Satan is bound already in the pit is not written, it originates from those who claim Satan was bound in the pit at the cross.

No, he is still loose and able to go back and forth just like he did in the time of Job. That's why Rev.12:10 reveals once Satan is cast out of the Heavenly dimension as a result of that war in Heaven, that he will no longer be in his role as the adversary or accuser, which is the actual meaning of his name Satan.

Apostle Peter in 1 Peter 5:8 also showed that Satan is still roaming about like lion, seeking whom he may devour. Hell is in the Heavenly dimension, Lord Jesus showed us that in His story about Lazarus and the rich man. And that is where Satan operates from when in the Heavenly dimension, which is why Rev.9:11 points to Satan as that angel, and king, of the bottomless pit, which is about the abode of hell where the locusts are loosed from.

Lord Jesus' symbolic references in His Book of Revelation support each other. We just have remember them while keeping the flow of the Chapter.

(Not sure the beast of Rev 13 is same as beast ridden by harlot in Rev 17 as there are some differences? Though it is similar with 7 heads and 10 horns.)

The 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is the same one of Rev.17:3, because both are about the beast that has "ten horns" and "seven heads", which is the kingdom beast. That symbology simply represents Jerusalem (the symbolic "woman" of Rev.17:18) at the END being Satan's controlling city or headquarters of his world beast kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You can't protect yourself from being deceived if you do not first know what Lord Jesus warned us about per His signs leading up to His future coming.

Your example of "attempts" might as well be speaking up in the air, as they give no direction about the deceptions Jesus warned the Church about for the end, or don't you realize why Lord Jesus gave His 'faithful' Church all those signs in His Book of Revelation?

If you keep your eyes on Jesus, as I said we should be doing, then you will be aware of what He warns us about. Hello? You are WRONG to say our focus should be on JERUSALEM. It should be on JESUS, as I said. That is a FACT.

So you got that false idea from the "synagogue of Satan" huh? That's their comeback about that "temple of God" phrase in 2 Thess.2:4.

You are extremely foolish and almost completely lacking in spiritual discernment. You understand post-trib correctly and almost nothing else. Anyone who tries to say that the temple of God would be a temple that God Himself would not dwell in is the one getting ideas from the synagogue of Satan.

The deceived Jews in Jerusalem will worship the coming FALSE-MESSIAH that appears in Jerusalem first, so the 3rd temple they will build they will believe... it is the TRUE temple of God, just like they will wrongly believe that FALSE-MESSIAH is the TRUE Messiah.

And you well understand this point, so I don't know why you are trying to protect those false-Jews in today's Jerusalem that will be instrumental in setting all that up in our near future.

I'm not trying to protect anyone. I'm showing what scripture actually teaches, which isn't what you are claiming. Show me where 2 Thessalonians 2:4 says anything about something that unbelieving Jews will think is the temple of God rather than being the actual, true temple of God. That idea is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in that verse.

 

[Davy]

If you keep your eyes on Jesus, as I said we should be doing, then you will be aware of what He warns us about. Hello? You are WRONG to say our focus should be on JERUSALEM. It should be on JESUS, as I said. That is a FACT.

You really don't know how badly you Biblically contradict yourself with statements like the above.

Jerusalem is specifically... where Lord Jesus showed by His Olivet discourse where the Church needs to be watching. Jerusalem is where those SIGNS of the END He gave happen.

So if one want to focus on Lord Jesus, watching the SIGNS of the END He COMMANDED His Church to be watching is how one does it. And NO MAN can override Jesus's commands for His faithful Church.

You are extremely foolish and almost completely lacking in spiritual discernment. You understand post-trib correctly and almost nothing else. Anyone who tries to say that the temple of God would be a temple that God Himself would not dwell in is the one getting ideas from the synagogue of Satan.

Firstly, your slanderous statements are just hot air. Do you really think by doing that others will think you intelligent? The won't, they will see you as being foolish.

And what's so difficult about understanding God's Word revealing Christ's future return to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation, like Jesus said?? I didn't know that was as difficult to understand as you seem... to make it. And that sounds like YOU have doubts about that, when it is actually CLEARLY written. So I got that, but almost nothing else? There's that stupid slander again, words of hot air.

So, you believe all the times when Old Testament Israel fell away from God, and instead worshiped IDOLS at their temple, that was GOD's temple when they did that? Obviously, you haven't even an inkling about the following Old Testament Scripture...

Ezek 8:3-18
3 And He put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.

5 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north." So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.

6 He said furthermore unto me, "Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from My sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations."

7 And He brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.

8 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, dig now in the wall": and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.

9 And He said unto me, "Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here."

10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.

11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.

12 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, 'The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.'"

13 He said also unto me, "Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do."

14 Then He brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

15 Then said He unto me, "Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these."

16 And He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

17 Then He said unto me, "Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke Me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them."
KJV

You ought to try actually reading... your Bible, instead of mocking others like an idiot.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You really don't know how badly you Biblically contradict yourself with statements like the above.

LOL. Your comments like this mean nothing to me.

Jerusalem is specifically... where Lord Jesus showed by His Olivet discourse where the Church needs to be watching. Jerusalem is where those SIGNS of the END He gave happen.

So if one want to focus on Lord Jesus, watching the SIGNS of the END He COMMANDED His Church to be watching is how one does it. And NO MAN can override Jesus's commands for His faithful Church.

You fail to discern when He was talking about events related to the local event in Jerusalem in 70 AD and when He was talking about events related to His future second coming.

Did Paul not get the memo that the signs of the end all relate to Jerusalem? In 2 Thessalonians 2 he said the signs relate to a mass falling away from the faith globally and to wickedness no longer being restrained globally and so on. It's not about Jerusalem. You foolishly think that "the temple of God" that Paul referenced is some imaginary future physical temple even though such a temple could not possibly be God's temple.

Firstly, your slanderous statements are just hot air.

Are you slanderous statements, of which there have been many, not hot air?

Do you really think by doing that others will think you intelligent? The won't, they will see you as being foolish.

You make yourself look foolish with almost every post you make, so how about just working on yourself first before making judgments of me?

And what's so difficult about understanding God's Word revealing Christ's future return to gather His Church AFTER... the tribulation, like Jesus said??

Hello? Are you for real? Do you actually think I don't agree with that even though I've told you I agree with that many times? Are you just unable to read? Is that what this is? You have never learned how to read? That would explain your lack of reading comprehension skills. I have indicated that I am post-trib MANY times, but here you are acting as if I believe...what, pre-trib? LOL. You can't be for real.

I didn't know that was as difficult to understand as you seem... to make it.

How exactly am I making Christ's post-trib return difficult when I never said anything to deny that it will be post-trib? Have you never seen any of the many times I have refuted pre-trib on this forum? Wake up.

And that sounds like YOU have doubts about that, when it is actually CLEARLY written.

Doubts about pre-trib? LOL. Not at all. But, I have serious doubts about your reading comprehension skills.

So I got that, but almost nothing else? There's that stupid slander again, words of hot air.

You know a lot about that. You're an expert when it comes to hot air. Everyone here knows that.

So, you believe all the times when Old Testament Israel fell away from God, and instead worshiped IDOLS at their temple, that was GOD's temple when they did that?

What people did there did not determine whether it was God's temple or not. Don't be so foolish. IT was God's temple and people did things there that they shouldn't be doing. But, what you are talking about in the future would not be God's temple at all. Not a temple that He wants to be built or a temple that He would ever dwell in. There's no way in the world that any future physical temple would be God's temple in any way, shape or form. You can't get around that, but God knows you will try, anyway.

Obviously, you haven't even an inkling about the following Old Testament Scripture...

Ezek 8:3-18
3 And He put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.

5 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north." So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.

6 He said furthermore unto me, "Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from My sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations."

7 And He brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.

8 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, dig now in the wall": and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.

9 And He said unto me, "Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here."

10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.

11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.

12 Then said He unto me, "Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, 'The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.'"

13 He said also unto me, "Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do."

14 Then He brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

15 Then said He unto me, "Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these."

16 And He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

17 Then He said unto me, "Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke Me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in Mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them."
KJV

You ought to try actually reading... your Bible, instead of mocking others like an idiot.

How about you stop acting like an idiot and actually read the passage you quoted carefully? Verse 4 says the glory of the God of Israel was there. It was God's temple, but abominations were being committed there. Those abominations didn't change the fact that it was God's temple with the glory of God being there. But, no future physical temple will have the glory of God there. God does not dwell in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24), because He instead dwells within us.

 

[Davy]

You fail to discern when He was talking about events related to the local event in Jerusalem in 70 AD and when He was talking about events related to His future second coming.

Really? So the placing of the "abomination of desolation" at the temple by the "vile person" per Daniel 11 happened in 70 A.D.? and the coming of a spurious Messiah ending the daily sacrifices and setting himself up as God in that temple all happened in 70 A.D.? And Jesus' 2nd coming then happened destroying that spurious Messiah according to the prophecy, also happened in the 70 A.D. era? after all, one of the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is about His coming and gathering of His Church, so... that happened also in 70 A.D. according to the doctrines of men you follow??

Obviously, your words reveal you have not... actually studied what those events are about in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. They are the SEALS of Revelation 6 also, by the way.

Whatever ideas you have past your deception about Christ's Olivet discourse SIGNS aren't worth addressing. You need to get back to study of the actual written Bible Scripture instead of just heeding a bunch of doctrines of men.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really?

Yes, really. Did I act as if I didn't mean what I said?

So the placing of the "abomination of desolation" at the temple by the "vile person" per Daniel 11 happened in 70 A.D.?

No, it's referring to Daniel 9:26-27. Jesus said Jerusalem and the temple buildings would be destroyed. That's undeniable. So, that is the context of what He was referring to in the Olivet Discourse when He talked about the need for those in Judea to flee to the mountains before that occurred.

and the coming of a spurious Messiah ending the daily sacrifices and setting himself up as God in that temple all happened in 70 A.D.?

Nope. Nice job of wasting your time with questions that don't apply to the abomination of desolation that Jesus referred to. You can't get that time back.

And Jesus' 2nd coming then happened destroying that spurious Messiah according to the prophecy, also happened in the 70 A.D. era? after all, one of the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is about His coming and gathering of His Church, so... that happened also in 70 A.D. according to the doctrines of men you follow??

Nope. I'm not a preterist. As I've said many times. But, go ahead and waste your time talking to your strawman, if you insist.

Obviously, your words reveal you have not...

Your words reveal that you have no idea of what I believe despite me telling you what I believe many times. You truly have utterly horrible reading comprehension skills, as you have now proven once again.

actually studied what those events are about in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

He spoke both about a local event in Judea and Jerusalem as well as the global event of His second coming. In relation to the local event, He said "let those in Judea flee to the mountains". That has nothing to do with His second coming because His second coming is a global event. And no one can flee to escape it. Paul indicated that no unbelievers will escape His second coming (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). Meanwhile, believers will put on bodily immortality and will escape the wrath of the Lamb.

Whatever ideas you have past your deception about Christ's Olivet discourse SIGNS aren't worth addressing.

If you actually bothered to see how I interpret the entire Olivet Discourse, that would be worth discussing, but instead you have chosen to believe that I'm a preterist and interpret the whole thing as being fulfilled in 70 AD, which I do not.

You need to get back to study of the actual written Bible Scripture instead of just heeding a bunch of doctrines of men.

I do not heed any doctrines of men. That is an extremely foolish accusation to make towards me. What do you think, that no one should agree with your interpretations of scripture? What you think are doctrines of men are any doctrines that more than one person believes. Ridiculous. You are clearly the one who needs to start from scratch and study the actual written Bible Scripture. It would be helpful if you asked God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) while doing so in order to stop relying entirely on your own fallible human wisdom to understand it.