Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

“When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then those in Judea must …”

(Luke 21:20, NRSVA)

Must what? Take up their swords and kill their enemies?

 

[Matthias]

Compare and contrast the pre-Constantinian view with the Augustinian view and we see the problematic.

 

[JesusFan]

@Jericho and @JesusFan is there any scenario where either of you would kill a fellow Christian?

That has happened a lot historically, as many oldiers on opposite sides were Christians defending their nations and people

 

[JesusFan]

View attachment 81588

I’d like for you to look at this photograph @JesusFan and @Jericho before reading the link. Do you recognize who this is? He was a conscientious objector. Does he look like someone who is “a man in form but not substance”?

Here is a link to this man’s story.

Desmond Doss

myhero.com

Medal of Honor winner, as was Alvin york, but there is NO prohibition against a Christian taking up arms to defend his nation, nor preventing him from being like an Audie murphey either

 

[JesusFan]

View attachment 81560

Same Jesus commanded the Jews to go into promised land and leave nothing alive

 

[JesusFan]

Why did they also kill Christians and Jews? Why did the Crusaders act like Muslims? Do you approve of their behavior? Do you encourage others to act toward their enemies as they acted toward theirs?

Where do you stand on the teaching of Jesus and the apostles on how to treat enemies?

The Crusades were necessary to stop the advance of Islam, but much of the behavior was not ordered by God

 

[Matthias]

Medal of Honor winner, as was Alvin york, but there is NO prohibition against a Christian taking up arms to defend his nation, nor preventing him from being like an Audie murphey either

The Messiah doesn’t instruct his followers to defend the nations they live in respectively. The nations are going to wage war on one another. The Messiah isn’t pleased with his followers killing one another.

That aside, the question I posed concerned the Medal of Honor awardee - a pacifist - being smeared as “a man in form but not in substance”. Doesn’t that strike you as an absurd accusation?

 

[Matthias]

The Crusades were necessary to stop the advance of Islam, but much of the behavior was not ordered by God

God didn’t order the Crusades. Nevertheless, God can use people who don’t obey the Messiah’s teaching concerning the way to treat enemies to accomplish his purpose. I think that’s what happened with the Crusades.

 

[Matthias]

Same Jesus commanded the Jews to go into promised land and leave nothing alive

Jesus’ God and Father, Yahweh, commanded the Jews to go into the promised land. Had they obeyed Yahweh they wouldn’t have had to kill anyone. God would have driven them out before them.

The followers of Jesus are commanded to love their enemies. Others posting in this thread have commented that killing our enemies isn’t loving our enemies; soldiers aren’t following the Messiah’s instruction to love enemies. I agree with them on this fundamental point.

 

[Matthias]

That has happened a lot historically, as many oldiers on opposite sides were Christians defending their nations and people

Yes. We have many historical examples of Christians killing Christians that we can point to. Would you do it?

Proposition: Jesus is pleased when his followers to kill one another.

That strikes me as false. Doesn’t it you?

Proposition: Jesus commands his followers to kill one another.

That has no support in scripture.

Someone wants the followers of Jesus to kill their enemies and one another. It isn’t Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

That’s not Jesus and the apostles. That’s the devil.

A person who obeys Jesus’ instruction / command concerning how to treat enemies is “a man in form but not in substance.”

That’s the taunt of the devil, directed at Jesus, the apostles, and those who obey the command to love their enemies.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Messiah isn’t pleased with his followers killing one another.

Self defense is not a sin.

Feel free to let the demon possessed to murder you and your family if you must.

The rest of us aren't going to lay down and let the devil destroy us

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

That’s not Jesus. That’s the devil.

A person who obeys Jesus’ instruction / command concerning how to treat enemies is “a man in form but not in substance.”

That’s the sneer of the devil.

You must be befuddled as to why Jesus said to obtain a deadly weapon.

This shows that He is not opposed to self defense.

 

[Matthias]

Self defense is not a sin.

Jesus, the apostles, the earliest followers of Jesus (until the 4th century) and a minority of Christians down through the centuries defended themselves without using the weapons of the world.

Feel free to let the demon possessed to murder you and your family if you must.

I will obey the command to love my enemies even if God allows them to murder me and my family. That is what happened to many, but not anywhere near all, in the early church.

The rest of us aren't going to lay down and let the devil destroy us

Jesus speaks about those who lose their life by saving their life. The devil didn’t destroy Jesus, the apostles, the earliest Christians who didn’t kill their enemies, nor any Christians since who obey the Messiah’s command and follow his and their example / practice.

 

[Matthias]

You must be befuddled as to why Jesus said to obtain a deadly weapon.

You must not take seriously Jesus’ command to Peter to put away the deadly weapon he said to obtain.

This shows that He is not opposed to self defense.

Jesus isn’t opposed to self defense and neither are the apostles. Neither he nor they used the weapons of the world to defend themselves. Paul describes the armor the followers of Jesus are to put on. It is in that way, not the world’s way, that Jesus, the apostles and disciples are to defend themselves.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Jesus, the apostles, the earliest followers of Jesus (until the 4th century) and a minority of Christians down through the centuries defended themselves without using the weapons of the world.

So you think Jesus committed sin when He said to get a sword (deadly weapon)?

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36 is a verse where Jesus instructs His disciples to take provisions for their journey, emphasizing that if they do not have a sword, they should sell their cloak to buy one. This reflects a shift in their circumstances, indicating the need for preparedness in facing upcoming challenges including the need for self defense.

if God allows them to murder me and my family

Well maybe it's God's will for you and your family to be murdered.

You must be a calvinist. They believe stuff like this

The devil didn’t destroy Jesus

I'm called to be conformed to the image of Jesus (Romans 8:29) so I'll be like Him and the devil won't be able to destroy me.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

[Matthias]

So you think Jesus committed sin when He said to get a sword (deadly weapon)?

Of course not.

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36 is a verse where Jesus instructs His disciples to take provisions for their journey, emphasizing that if they do not have a sword, they should sell their cloak to buy one. This reflects a shift in their circumstances, indicating the need for preparedness in facing upcoming challenges including the need for self defense.

It doesn’t.

Well maybe it's God's will for you and your family to be murdered.

Maybe it is. Many before me have been murdered. They gave up their lives rather than disobey the Messiah’s command and followed his example. Again, many of them weren’t murdered.

Your trust is in worldly weapons. The Messiah’s trust, the apostles’ trust, the earliest followers of Jesus trust wasn’t. Mine isn’t.

You must be a calvinist. They believe stuff like this

You know that I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a Calvinist.

I'm called to be conformed to the image of Jesus (Romans 8:29) so I'll be like Him and the devil won't be able to destroy me.

Disobeying his command concerning how to treat enemies and not following his example is what will destroy you.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John 14:30
the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

[Matthias]

What did it look like in the earliest centuries of the church for those who obeyed Jesus’ command to put down the sword and to love their enemies? To those who took seriously Paul’s statement that ”we [followers of Jesus] do not use the weapons of the world (2 Corinthians 10:3)? For many, but not all of them, it looked like this -





What you are saying to me you are saying to them. What I’m saying to you is representative of what they would say to you @Big Boy Johnson.

P.S.

This is what it can look like for those who follow Jesus. The ECF’s knew it and they wrote against those who would take up the sword. If you haven’t read them, you should.

 

[Matthias]

I finished reading a book this evening about the Anabaptist Kingdom of Munster. (This was a branch of Anabaptism in the 16th century that endorsed killing their enemies; the so-called Melchiorites.)

@JesusFan how familiar are you with the Mennonites (a pacifist branch of Anabaptism which began in the 16th century and still exists today)? In your estimation, are the following propositions applicable to them?

1. ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

2. “[Men] in form but not substance.”

 

[JesusFan]

The Messiah doesn’t instruct his followers to defend the nations they live in respectively. The nations are going to wage war on one another. The Messiah isn’t pleased with his followers killing one another.

That aside, the question I posed concerned the Medal of Honor awardee - a pacifist - being smeared as “a man in form but not in substance”. Doesn’t that strike you as an absurd accusation?

Same would also apply when some smeared vets as baby killers when returning from Vietnam