Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[rebuilder 454]

"I used to be pretrib"

What are you now? No trib? Because pretrib rapture can be defended.
Lots of verses.
Postrib is not only impossible , but has no verses
Not a single postrib rapture verse.

Every postribber has to defend the impossible "one coming".
They stepped into that mess without a bible.
Totally made it up.
Then watch them attempt to unpacked Rev 14. , and mat 25, the 10 virgins.

Flat out comical.

 

[WPM]

At catholic.com they give a list of 9 or 10 church fathers that believed in transubstantiation of the bread and wine

In foxes book of martyrs the catholics burned Christians for not worshipping the bread and wine.

The church fathers also falsely believed in the erroneous post trib rapture.
Irenaous wrote against heresies because so much error was present.
The catholics hail him as supporting their bread deity deal.

Men, with limited revelation getting things wrong, end times dynamics included..

There are many Pretribbers who are messed up, including apostates and heretics.

 

[WPM]

QUOTE
"Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli"

He got most of it right in his commentary

I guess if we allow for his limited revelation we can give him a B-.

But then again, him referring to "the oppression of the time of the AC," can mean "at the start of the trib" or even be looking forward to the future acts of the AC. (hmmmm...a pretrib rapture)

Who cares what mark you would give him. That means nothing.

Your posts are incoherent ramblings. It is hard to decipher them.

 

[WPM]

"I used to be pretrib"

What are you now? No trib? Because pretrib rapture can be defended.
Lots of verses.
Postrib is not only impossible , but has no verses
Not a single postrib rapture verse.

Every postribber has to defend the impossible "one coming".
They stepped into that mess without a bible.
Totally made it up.
Then watch them attempt to unpacked Rev 14. , and mat 25, the 10 virgins.

Flat out comical.

LOL. Really? How about being the first Pretribber online to give us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 yr trib followed by a 3rd coming?

I will not hold my breath.

It is a Jesuit invention.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"I used to be pretrib"

What are you now? No trib? Because pretrib rapture can be defended.
Lots of verses.

Okay, do it then. You just ramble on and on and on without saying anything. Make an argument using scripture for once.

Postrib is not only impossible , but has no verses

LOL!

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Scripture says that Jesus is coming a second time, not a third time (Acts 1:9-11, Hebrews 9:28). So, obviously, He can only come after the tribulation and not both before and after.

Pre-trib has no scripture whatsoever to support it. Yet, you act as if you have a plethora of scriptures to support it. Not even close. Only scriptures that you blatantly twist to make them support pre-trib.

Not a single postrib rapture verse.

Right, not just a single post-trib rapture verse. Many post-trib rapture verses.

Every postribber has to defend the impossible "one coming".

LOL! What's impossible is more than one future coming of Christ.

They stepped into that mess without a bible.
Totally made it up.
Then watch them attempt to unpacked Rev 14. , and mat 25, the 10 virgins.

You're all talk. Revelation 14 and Matthew 25:1-13 come nowhere near supporting the imaginary pre-trib rapture theory.

Flat out comical.

Pre-trib is the single most comical end-times belief that anyone has. It's a complete joke.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who cares what mark you would give him. That means nothing.

Your posts are incoherent ramblings. It is hard to decipher them.

Everyone knows that his posts are completely incoherent, but in his delusional mind he thinks he's making watertight arguments. Despite never exegeting even one verse of scripture. It's just unbelievable.

 

[WPM]

Everyone knows that his posts are completely incoherent, but in his delusional mind he thinks he's making watertight arguments. Despite never exegeting even one verse of scripture. It's just unbelievable.

Amen!

It is embarrassing. He cannot give one proof text or rebut one counter argument. All he has is noise, avoidance and ad hominem.

 

[ScottA]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

The important and correct version came from God through Paul, who explained that two types are raised up, but each one person in their own order or time.

Anything else is the false teachings of men.

 

[Trekson]

Not saying it is.
I am saying we also believe that passage.
I am not the one DEPENDING on other men's doctrine.

Funny how you are posting verses that both sides use , then thinking you did something

I know your doctrine.
You do not know mine.
Si you find a verse that can make either position, and think you actually did something.
Again, since you do not know the pretrib doctrine, you are batting the air.

I know it very well and reject it as a 'false" doctrine.

 

[Trekson]

As a matter of fact there are several points you think you make, and fail, because YOU DO NOT KNOW the pretrib rapture doctrine.

If you get 100 % Honest, and cast down all the rabbit trails, grsb a bible, and debate honestly, I can defend the pretrib rapture doctrine quite handily

We can start by you producing a single postrib rapture verse

Go ahead post one.
It will be a first.

Rev. 7:9-14, Matt. 24:29-31, Rev. 12:17, Rev. 13:7-10. But of course, understanding these is to know that there is no such group as 'trib" saints. They are all the "still here church". Pre-trib wants the 144,000 to preach to the world where the result will be a great revival, something the bible never says they or anyone does. What the bible does say in Rev. 9:20 and 16:11 is that men will "refuse" to repent. This leaves you w/ the choice of believing the doctrines of men or the Word of God! Next one?

 

[Trekson]

The Jews, in Rev 14, are gathered ( raptured DURING the trib)
In order for 1 these 4 to be true, the dead in christ must rise before that.

So you are dead wrong.
Rev 14 in your doctrine.
Show it to me.
You know for a fact it is missing.
Show me how you change the components.
Ever component is changed in Rev 14 by your top colleagues.
....a book it is forbidden to change.

Rev. 14 is a flash forward to the start of the millennium when one realizes the 144,000 aren't in heaven, they are on earth. Rev. 14:13-16 is another possible view of the post-persecution rapture. Post trib implies, because of the inaccuracy of the name, post 70th week and I don't believe that view to be true either.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Rev. 14 is a flash forward to the start of the millennium when one realizes the 144,000 aren't in heaven, they are on earth. Rev. 14:13-16 is another possible view of the post-persecution rapture. Post trib implies, because of the inaccuracy of the name, post 70th week and I don't believe that view to be true either.

When would be Jesus's second coming in your view?

 

[Trekson]

Huh ?

It is a well known verse.
All your colleagues use it.

It is comical once I get them to actually read what it says.
I says the man of sin is REVEALED before the rapture.
That verse and.statement are in fact PRETRIB RAPTURE.
HE...THE AC....IS REVEALED , THEN THE RAPTURE.

Hello, your doctrine that your teachers promote, use a PRETRIB RAPTURE concept, and are OBLIVIOUS TO IT.

Play it out.
You are actually thinking the AC is revealed postrib?

When was Obama revealed?
After 8 years in office?

See what it says.
Honestly read what it says.

And I still wait for some postrib rapture verse.
Still waiting

Get you facts straight, "not" post trib, post-persecution. When the a/c is "revealed" is when there will be no doubt because by the time he is revealed, is when he sits in the Temple of God. By this time the 70th week (the trib) is at least half over.

 

[MonoBiblical]

John said there had been many anti-Christs. I think Gamaliel was a and the false prophet.

 

[Trekson]

When would be Jesus's second coming in your view?

Sometime 'after" the middle of the week, but well before Armageddon.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Sometime 'after" the middle of the week, but well before Armageddon.

I think we have been already left behind so to speak. The last days of the planet or the last day of Israel?

 

[WPM]

Sometime 'after" the middle of the week, but well before Armageddon.

Where does it even mention the second coming in Dan 9? Where is your 3rd coming? Nowhere! You seem to make it up as you go.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Yes, most of the earliest of the Church Fathers were Postrib and focused on the necessity of being purified in the world by trial. It was a call to endurance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Huh ?

It is a well known verse.
All your colleagues use it.

It is comical once I get them to actually read what it says.
I says the man of sin is REVEALED before the rapture.
That verse and.statement are in fact PRETRIB RAPTURE.
HE...THE AC....IS REVEALED , THEN THE RAPTURE.

Hello, your doctrine that your teachers promote, use a PRETRIB RAPTURE concept, and are OBLIVIOUS TO IT.

Play it out.
You are actually thinking the AC is revealed postrib?

When was Obama revealed?
After 8 years in office?

See what it says.
Honestly read what it says.

And I still wait for some postrib rapture verse.
Still waiting

What Paul is actually teaching in 2 Thes 2 is that the coming of the Lord for the Chuch takes place *both* after the revelation of Antichrist and *at* the destruction of Antichrist. That is, Paul makes the assumption that both are the same thing, both the revelation of Antichrist and the destruction of Antichrist.

Obviously, Antichrist has to be revealed first before he is destroyed. But Paul is stating both events as one to show Christians that they must 1st endure the Antichrist before arriving at his destruction, when Christ returns. Therefore, Christ cannot return, Paul argues, before Antichrist is revealed because Christians are warned to endure antichristianity in the present age, including Antichrist at the end of the age.

Read it for yourself in an unjaded way...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of all the rapture theories out there, pretrib has the least scriptural context to it, barely any as a matter of fact and I used to be pretrib.

I used to be Pretrib too, until I memorized 2 Thessalonians.