When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?

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IMO:

o Satan and his angels are already here (1Peter 5:8).

o Satan has occasional visits to heaven (Job 1:6-12).

o. The archangel Michael, along with other angels, stand up for Israel (against Satan) in Revelation 19:17-21 (battle of Har Megiddo, Revelation 19:11-21).
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Davy noted:
> hell part of heaven>
I do not see anywhere the poster said that..
He said hell/Hades is part of the heavenly dimension. It is not. He is conflating the spiritual dimension with the heavenly dimension. Heaven is in the heavenly dimension, but hell is not. Both are in the spiritual dimension.
 
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There are varying opinions on these things. I agree that heaven is another dimension. I imagine hell is within the earth, since Satan will be confined to the "pit" in the future (Revelation 20:1-3), and after the 1000 years comes up from the "earth" (Revelation 20:7-10). Hence it seems hell=pit= earth.
 

Davy

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He said hell/Hades is part of the heavenly dimension. It is not. He is conflating the spiritual dimension with the heavenly dimension. Heaven is in the heavenly dimension, but hell is not. Both are in the spiritual dimension.
That of course is error, because God's Word speaks of ONLY TWO different dimensions of existence, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly one where the abode of God and the angels is, which includes the abode of hell. Jesus showed this in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. You both are only following an OLD JEWISH TRADITION.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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That of course is error, because God's Word speaks of ONLY TWO different dimensions of existence, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly one where the abode of God and the angels is, which includes the abode of hell. Jesus showed this in Luke 16 with the story of Lazarus and the rich man. You both are only following an OLD JEWISH TRADITION.
What evidence do you have to back up your claims? You continue to conflate the spiritual realm with the heavenly realm. Hell is not in the heavenly realm. I believe that the third heaven/paradise is separate from Abraham's bosom and Hades/hell. I believe the souls and spirits of believers were not in heaven/paradise yet at that time and were taken there when Jesus died. He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise the day He died. Otherwise, why didn't Jesus reference Abraham as being in the third heaven/paradise instead of calling it Abraham's bosom?
 
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Spiritual Israelite noted:

>Hell is not in the heavenly realm.>

IMO hell is in the earth.

"Hell" stems from Old English "hell" = "abode of the dead." The Bible makes a distinction, some go to heaven, some go to hell.

>third heaven>

Sky = first heaven
Outer space = second heaven
Realm of God = third heaven (dimension apart from our own)

God created the heavens and the Earth, hence God does not dwell in them.

We are created beings, hence it is extremely difficult for us to comprehend dimensions outside our own.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Wow.."....so many differing opinions about what hell is....where hell is...and more importantly what hell meant to a Jew.

How did the Jews understand “hell” (hades) as opposed to “Gehenna” (reference to the Valley of Hinnom which had a nasty history for ancient Israel as the place just outside the walls of the city, where apostate Israel sacrificed their children in the fire to the false god Molech.)

These were two vastly different concepts.....”hades” was simply the equivalent of the Hebrew “Sheol” which in the Jewish Tanakh is translated as “the grave”....which is the place where all the dead go.....those “sleeping in death” do so in the grave. There is no conscious existence there. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 115:17)

Gehenna OTOH meant something else entirely......Gehenna was a place where the wicked were consigned.
The symbolism came from the fire that was burning constantly because the valley was converted to a garbage dump at God’s command. He put a stop to child sacrifice, as it was abhorrent to him. (Jer 7:31)

Those not considered worthy of a decent burial were cast into “Gehenna” for disposal, like so much garbage.
Without a Memorial tomb inscribed with their name and family lineage, the Jews considered them also unworthy of a resurrection. So consigning someone to Gehenna simply meant eternal death, not eternal suffering. If God said that putting their own children into a fire was abhorrent to him, then why would he do that to his own children....he is not a sadist.

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a true story. Hades to a Jews did not involve being alive somewhere else whilst the body was in the grave.....the living body was a soul......it simply means a “breather”. Adam “became” a soul when God started him breathing.....when he ceased to breathe, the soul Adam, died. (Ezekiel 18:4) Souls are mortal, not immortal.
 
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IMO:

"Heavens" (Hebrew השמים, Genesis 1:1) = Outer space, of which we are a part.

"Heaven" (Greek ουρανος, Mark 10:21) is the abode of God.
 
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Davy

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I keep having to remind brethren what Apostle John said in John 4:24, that "God is a Spirit"...

John 4:24
24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


In the beginning at Genesis 1:1 then, before God created the earth, we also know per Job 38 that He had already created the angels, as they sang for joy when He created the earth.

So... earth no existed yet at that point prior to Genesis 1:1, where is God and those angels at that time before the laying of the foundations of the earth?

And Hebrews 11:3 reveals that things seen, i.e. material matter, did not create things that do appear, i.e., material objects, earthly objects. Means no earthly dimension yet at that point, or more simply, earthly matter did not exist yet.

In what TYPE of realm or abode was God and the angels in, prior to the creation of material matter and the earth?
 
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What evidence do you have to back up your claims? You continue to conflate the spiritual realm with the heavenly realm. Hell is not in the heavenly realm. I believe that the third heaven/paradise is separate from Abraham's bosom and Hades/hell. I believe the souls and spirits of believers were not in heaven/paradise yet at that time and were taken there when Jesus died. He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise the day He died. Otherwise, why didn't Jesus reference Abraham as being in the third heaven/paradise instead of calling it Abraham's bosom?
"Abraham's bosom" is found in Luke 16:19-31.

"Bosom" is Greek πολκοις = "upper part of chest." Figuratively it can indicate "inner circle, place of honor and safety." (Oxford Greek Dictionary).

If we go where Abraham is now, then I suppose we are secure in heaven, since he is Father of the faith.
 
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IMO:
o God is invisible (Colossians 1:15).
o God created heavens (השמים) and earth (הארץ) (Genesis 1:1).
o Hell is within the earth (Revelation 21:8), lots of burning sulfur there.
o "Heaven" in the sense of "abode of God" is another dimension.
 
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Aunty Jane

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"Abraham's bosom" is found in Luke 16:19-31.
What then is Abraham’s bosom? Why was it not God’s bosom?

To whom was that parable given? Jesus was teaching his disciples, all of whom were Jewish.

Verses just before Jesus uttered it, gave us a clue about who he was talking about with that parable of the rich man and Lazarus..

He said…”Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.” (Luke 16:14-15 NASB)

So Jesus used a “rich man” as part of his illustration. He used a beggar by contrast to picture the spiritually impoverished “lost sheep” to whom he was sent….these barely got crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.
Both died and changed places…..the rich man lost his place, and the beggar attained, it in “Abraham’s bosom”. Since the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, those in “hades” (the grave) were not literally alive, but symbolically and spiritually dead and finding themselves in altered circumstances. “Gnashing of their teeth” followed their fall from God’s favour.

[quote@William Barton]"Bosom" is Greek πολκοις = "upper part of chest." Figuratively it can indicate "inner circle, place of honor and safety." (Oxford Greek Dictionary).[/quote]

Yes, the “bosom” position was one of favor, as those reclining at a meal, only one could occupy the “bosom” position of the host. The apostle John usually reclined there, as a close associate of his Master….one he was especially fond of.

The fact that it was Abraham’s bosom and not God’s, revealed that it was the Jewish Pharisees that he was alluding to….sons of Abraham…..holding the favored position in the nation, but they lost it when they rejected their Messiah. The beggar gained it by accepting Jesus as their Savior.
If we go where Abraham is now, then I suppose we are secure in heaven, since he is Father of the faith.
Abraham did not have a hope of going to heaven.....God’s early servants did not have any beliefs about heaven and hell...only life and death...and those concepts were biblical...but immortal souls and strange destinations for them did not originate from among God’s people....or from Scripture.....they are entirely pagan adoptions.

Hebrews 11 is a glowing commendation of all those faithful ones of old who died without receiving the fulfilment of the promises that knew were sure to come about....on earth.
It concludes by saying.....
“And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40 ESV)
So those of God’s faithful ancient servants were not going to see the promises fulfilled before the ones who died after Christ opened the way to heaven....that was only for the elect. No one who died before Jesus, receives a heavenly reward, as only those taken into the new covenant can go there as “kings and priests” ruling in his kingdom. (Rev 20:6) These are the one who experience “the first resurrection”.

The ancient ones will come back to life on earth when Jesus calls all the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29) Reinstating his first purpose for the human race was always on God’s agenda.....they will all receive everlasting life in paradise on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)
 
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Hebrews 11:10-16 indicates that Abraham anticipated a city founded by God. It is not clear to me what he knew about heaven (nor do I know much about heaven).

I suppose "Abraham's bosom" is a figure of speech for "following Abraham's example." I.e. Abraham is a "role model."
 
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indentured servant

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war in Heaven between Archangel Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels, did NOT... happen back in history. It is an event still future to us today
The fact that demon-possession was introduced during Jesus' lifetime and never in the OT, tells us that the fallen angels, the minions of Satan, were cast down to earth not long after Jesus' birth.

Prophetic Scripture reveals this.

No other 'interpretation" can change what Scripture teaches.
 

Aunty Jane

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Abraham looked for a city founded by God (i.e. New Jerusalem, on earth, Hebrews 11:10). I doubt that he knew about Heaven.
The city he awaited was going to rule from heaven…

Heb 12:22-23…
“But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23  in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect”.

“Heavenly Jerusalem” is the one God promised….the place where angels reside…..literal Jerusalem is no longer featured in God’s purpose….neither are literal Israel, who have not accepted Christ as Messiah today any more than they did back in the first century. It is a requirement for salvation.
“The congregation of the firstborn…have been enrolled in heaven”….disciples of Christ who have been “made perfect”.
 
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IMO:
"Heavenly Jerusalem" in Hebrews 12:22-23 is "heavenly Jerusalem come down to [the new] earth" (Revelation 21:1-2). God will once again dwell among men.

This is after the millennial reign of Jesus.
 
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Davy

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The fact that demon-possession was introduced during Jesus' lifetime and never in the OT, tells us that the fallen angels, the minions of Satan, were cast down to earth not long after Jesus' birth.

You need to go back and read your Old Testament histories, for familiar spirits were VERY active in Old Testament times too. Did you not understand why king Saul went to inquire of the witch of Endor who conjured an evil spirit for Saul?
 

indentured servant

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You need to go back and read your Old Testament histories, for familiar spirits were VERY active in Old Testament times too. Did you not understand why king Saul went to inquire of the witch of Endor who conjured an evil spirit for Saul?
Thank you for making me feel unwelcome.

No need to respond, I'll never read it... this is my final post on this site.

I couldn't remember why I'd left this site last year... You just reminded me how arrogant everyone is on here.
 
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What then is Abraham’s bosom? Why was it not God’s bosom?

To whom was that parable given? Jesus was teaching his disciples, all of whom were Jewish.

Verses just before Jesus uttered it, gave us a clue about who he was talking about with that parable of the rich man and Lazarus..

He said…”Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.” (Luke 16:14-15 NASB)

So Jesus used a “rich man” as part of his illustration. He used a beggar by contrast to picture the spiritually impoverished “lost sheep” to whom he was sent….these barely got crumbs falling from the rich man’s table.
Both died and changed places…..the rich man lost his place, and the beggar attained, it in “Abraham’s bosom”. Since the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, those in “hades” (the grave) were not literally alive, but symbolically and spiritually dead and finding themselves in altered circumstances. “Gnashing of their teeth” followed their fall from God’s favour.

[quote@William Barton]"Bosom" is Greek πολκοις = "upper part of chest." Figuratively it can indicate "inner circle, place of honor and safety." (Oxford Greek Dictionary).

Yes, the “bosom” position was one of favor, as those reclining at a meal, only one could occupy the “bosom” position of the host. The apostle John usually reclined there, as a close associate of his Master….one he was especially fond of.

The fact that it was Abraham’s bosom and not God’s, revealed that it was the Jewish Pharisees that he was alluding to….sons of Abraham…..holding the favored position in the nation, but they lost it when they rejected their Messiah. The beggar gained it by accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Abraham did not have a hope of going to heaven.....God’s early servants did not have any beliefs about heaven and hell...only life and death...and those concepts were biblical...but immortal souls and strange destinations for them did not originate from among God’s people....or from Scripture.....they are entirely pagan adoptions.

Hebrews 11 is a glowing commendation of all those faithful ones of old who died without receiving the fulfilment of the promises that knew were sure to come about....on earth.
It concludes by saying.....
“And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40 ESV)
So those of God’s faithful ancient servants were not going to see the promises fulfilled before the ones who died after Christ opened the way to heaven....that was only for the elect. No one who died before Jesus, receives a heavenly reward, as only those taken into the new covenant can go there as “kings and priests” ruling in his kingdom. (Rev 20:6) These are the one who experience “the first resurrection”.

The ancient ones will come back to life on earth when Jesus calls all the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29) Reinstating his first purpose for the human race was always on God’s agenda.....they will all receive everlasting life in paradise on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

"Bottomless" in Revelation 9:1 is Greek αβυσσος = "immeasurable depth" (Oxford Greek Dictionary). We get the word "abyss" from this Greek word.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a true story.
Nonsense. Jesus did not present it as a parable. Parables do not contain names of real people and places like Luke 16:19-31 does. Jesus presented the rich man as being in torment in Hades. Why would He do that if that is not how things are in reality? Do you think He was trying to confuse people for no apparent reason? Of course He wasn't. He portrayed people as being conscious after physical death because people are conscious after physical death. Even if it was a parable why would Jesus present such a scenario as dead people being conscious if it didn't represent reality? Jesus would not do that.