Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[The Light]

You are mixing subjects. That is talking about the first resurrection of Christ 2000 years ago from the dead. The other passages are talking about salvation. Different subject. Pay attention!

I think I was clear enough.

The 144,000 are the early church.

If you want to believe what you have been taught instead of the Word of God, that is your choice.

This harvest has already occurred.

The 144,000 will not be first fruits until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

 

[The Light]

Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

2 plus 2.

 

[Trekson]

Noah left the surface of the earth and was in the clouds. Lot left Sodom.

Right, many came out of their graves............first fruits.

Noah wasn't in the clouds that's stretching things a whole lot. First fruits = spring harvest.

 

[The Light]

Noah wasn't in the clouds that's stretching things a whole lot.

Well Noah sure didn't stay there

First fruits = spring harvest.

This is incorrect. First fruits are the first fruits of the harvest. If the harvest is barley, the first fruits will be in the spring.
If the harvest is the fruit harvest, such as grapes the first fruits will be late summer or early fall.

 

[David in NJ]

The key word here is joined. Since we are speaking about a spiritual union, the act of sex isn't a consideration. The "one flesh" is equivalent to the "one new man" of Eph. 2:11-18.

Good Morning and thank you for your reply.

Making coffee right now.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Word is clear enough.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. It is the second coming. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. Those of Israel that fled to a place of protection remain on the earth during the wrath of God. After the angels gather the elect, all return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7, some of whom come out of great tribulation. After the marriage supper all follow Jesus as part of the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

The angels gather the elect for the assembly in heaven to the white horses.
You are missing mat 24, Jesus comes in power and great glory AFTER the 7 yr trib.
Rev 14;14 is the final gathering of earth...during the trib. And that is the Jews.

Now you're getting closer, God has and will only ever have one wife and as Christ and God are "one", so is their wife, they will never have "two" wives. Israel is the bride/wife. No divorce was ever ratified, so it was threatened but never happened. The church united w/ Christ as one, head and body are the "bridegroom".

Your getting closer.
2 wives.
Illustrated in Hosea and Ruth.
Ruth is the Gentile bride and Gomer is the "wife Gone whoring".
The covenant Jews are represented in Gomer, and are again referred to in romans 9-11., then fulfilled in Rev 14.
Ask a postribber about the 144,000 and their ethnicity and you will see them turn a no-brainer into a fiasco.

Misunderstanding the 2 wives ( the 2 covenants), really hamstrings understanding of end times.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ignore Revelation 1:8 and 7:14

Keep doing that and you will remain decieved by the doctrines of men = baptists, dispensationalists and pre-fibbers

I will note that you can not unpack Rev 14.

Dodge and omit.
Repeat.
Got it.

 

[David in NJ]

I will note that you can not unpack Rev 14.

I understand Rev ch14 for the Holy Spirit has "unpacked" it for me.

Only ONE 1st Coming of Christ = Isaiah chapter 53 , John chapter 3

Only ONE 2nd Coming of Christ = Hebrews 9:28 , Matthew chapter 24 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , Revelation 1:8

Dodge and omit.
Repeat.
Got it.

 

[WPM]

The 6th seal is the end of the age. The great tribulation is over and the 7th seal wrath of God is about to begin.

The wicked do not get destroyed until the 7th seal is opened which contains Gods wrath.


The 7th seal is the time of Gods wrath upon the earth........not the 6th seal.

The great tribulation is when the beast is killing believers. It is over at the 6th seal.

Wrath has not yet begun until the 7th seal is opened.


There is a rapture at the 6th seal. The unrighteous have not experienced the wrath of God and will not until the 7th seal is opened.

What you don't realize is what you posted is the 7th seal which is the wrath of God. Those verses in Rev 16 that you posted about Armageddon is about the Day of the Lord which occurs at the end of wrath.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the 6th seal.

Why do you ignore the literal detail in the text?

You have avoided all the final destructive evidence that is identified with this passage and every other climactic passage. You have no answer to the literal detail. You spiritualize everything that exposes your error away. You have to! That is all you have.

I refer you back to my last post that rebuts this post.

 

[WPM]

The 6th seal is the end of the age. The great tribulation is over and the 7th seal wrath of God is about to begin.

The wicked do not get destroyed until the 7th seal is opened which contains Gods wrath.


The 7th seal is the time of Gods wrath upon the earth........not the 6th seal.

The great tribulation is when the beast is killing believers. It is over at the 6th seal.

Wrath has not yet begun until the 7th seal is opened.


There is a rapture at the 6th seal. The unrighteous have not experienced the wrath of God and will not until the 7th seal is opened.

What you don't realize is what you posted is the 7th seal which is the wrath of God. Those verses in Rev 16 that you posted about Armageddon is about the Day of the Lord which occurs at the end of wrath.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the 6th seal.

The wrath of God is sudden and wholesale destruction. No one survives. Revelation 6:12-16 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

This reading correlates with Revelation 19 and graphically describes the same apocalyptic scene. It shows what awaits those left behind at Christ's Coming. The book of Revelation is like that. It is a recapitulation of events approaching the second coming and things that attend it. Here, when the reality of their awful doomed state finally hits them, the wicked hide from the One that has come to destroy. Like Noah and Lot's day, their day of opportunity is gone. Without exceptions, all outside the ark (Christ) at the catching away will be destroyed, whether bond or free.

 

[The Light]

The angels gather the elect for the assembly in heaven to the white horses.

Negative. The angels gather the elect for the marriage supper. The great multitude is in heaven during the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

After the marriage supper then the armies of heaven return to the earth for Armageddon on the Day of the Lord.

You are missing mat 24, Jesus comes in power and great glory AFTER the 7 yr trib.

Matthew 24 occurs when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. That occurs at the 6th seal. Why is this so hard to understand? It's written in the Word. The timing is absolutely clear. There is no mistake when Matthew 24 occurs......6th seal.


Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

And there is no 7-year tribulation. There is a final week that begins when a 7-year covenant with many IS MADE.

The Church will not be in heaven before the 7 years begin as Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Rev 14;14 is the final gathering of earth...during the trib. And that is the Jews.

Revelation 14:14 is the gathering from heaven and earth. This occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, not during the tribulation. Revelation 14:14 is the coming of Jesus (Matthew 24) in power at glory at the 6th seal. The Church is gathered from heaven and follow the Lord to the earth, as where the body is, the eagles gather. The Jews are gathered from the earth, dead and alive at the last trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Both brides return to heaven for the marriage supper where we will remain during the one-year wrath of God. At the end of the year the armies of heaven will follow the Lord to Armageddon.

Those of the nation of Israel that fled to the place of protection, remain on the earth during the one year wrath of God. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

 

[WPM]

2 plus 2.

Again, you have no answer to the truth. Avoidance is your MO. That is because you push error.

 

[WPM]

I think I was clear enough.

If you want to believe what you have been taught instead of the Word of God, that is your choice.

The 144,000 will not be first fruits until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

No, i believe what the Book teaches. You have no rebuttals to the truth. Your teachers have misled you. You have been left having to defend it, and you cannot.

 

[The Light]

The wrath of God is sudden and wholesale destruction. No one survives. Revelation 6:12-16 relates to the final destruction described in Isaiah 34 to the appearance of the Lord at the second coming, where the wicked finally receive their reward. The sixth seal says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

You are correct in that this event is described in Isaiah 34. But in Isaiah 34 we can see that the wrath of God lasts one year.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The sudden destruction does not occur until Armageddon. You are skipping the 1st 6 trumpets and vials of wrath which occur before Armageddon.

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus comes for the Church before the great tribulation.
Jesus comes for the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal. Revelation 14:14-19.
Jesus returns with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath at the Day of the Lord which occurs at the end of the 7th seal.

• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

There are survivors as the millennial kingdom is set up on the earth.

This passage, which is speaking of the exact same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5, asks a simple question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. Well, it is obvious to those who don't have a theological agenda to impute into the text. No one that is left behind will survive the wrath of God that He pours out on the ungodly on this fateful final day. So rather than rewarding all those that attack Jerusalem by allowing them to inherit the new earth, Christ destroys them and their rebellion.

So as to remove any confusion over the full extent of those that will be destroyed who are left behind, the Holy Spirit says: "the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man." Obviously if a human isn't "free" they are "a bondman" (or a slave).

There are people left on the earth after Armageddon.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This reading correlates with Revelation 19 and graphically describes the same apocalyptic scene. It shows what awaits those left behind at Christ's Coming. The book of Revelation is like that. It is a recapitulation of events approaching the second coming and things that attend it. Here, when the reality of their awful doomed state finally hits them, the wicked hide from the One that has come to destroy. Like Noah and Lot's day, their day of opportunity is gone. Without exceptions, all outside the ark (Christ) at the catching away will be destroyed, whether bond or free.

Do you not believe in a Millennial kingdom?

 

[The Light]

Again, you have no answer to the truth. Avoidance is your MO. That is because you push error.

OK............Go your way. Got no time for your nonsense. Have a nice day.

 

[David in NJ]

OK............Go your way. Got no time for your nonsense. Have a nice day.

I am busy with work but have stored in my heart/mind the 7th Seal and something you said about it which has stirred my investigation.

Thank You and may ALL of the Body of Christ on here and everywhere seek that which please our Heavenly FATHER Today.

Be BLESSED Ya-ALL

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Same event. What you are describing is in Rev 19. Is that a 3rd coming in your theology?

Yes, he thinks Revelation 19:11-21 describes a 3rd coming of Christ and he believes there are two raptures, which is obviously complete nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sixth seal is the end of the world. It sees the change from time to eternity. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked.

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

• The sun becomes black.
• The moon becomes as blood.
• The stars of heaven fall unto the earth.
• The heaven departs like a scroll.
• Every mountain and island are moved out of their places.

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This is the end of the world. There are no survivors! This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it – men are either caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives.

Revelation 16:12-14: “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

Revelation 16:15-21: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done (or gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

How can anyone survive this? This is the end of the world! When Christ returns, He shakes the hole of creation and destroys all the wicked. The universe is convulsing in this narrative as God calls time on corruption and rebellion. This is not some mere localized event. It is global! The “great earthquake” described is so colossal that “the cities of the nations fell” and “every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.” The whole earth is shaken. This corruptible earth is having seizures before it is transformed.

Exactly. This is why it describes silence in heaven at the opening of the seventh seal. Heaven will be empty at that point because Jesus, the souls of the dead in Christ, and His angels will have all descended from heaven.

 

[amigo de christo]

I understand Rev ch14 for the Holy Spirit has "unpacked" it for me.

Only ONE 1st Coming of Christ = Isaiah chapter 53 , John chapter 3

Only ONE 2nd Coming of Christ = Hebrews 9:28 , Matthew chapter 24 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , Revelation 1:8

Dodge and omit.
Repeat.
Got it.

Nigh two thousand years ago He first came to do all and fullfill all that was needed for the sake of the peoples
unto the GLORY of the FATHER .
And all who do beleive on HIM to them gave he power to become the sons and daughters of GOD .
And now we , as did the sheep throughout all generations , await HIS SECOND COMING . A ONE TIME
EVENT . In which He shall surely come and all who did sleep in HIM and we who are still here
shall fly up to MEET HIM IN THE AIR and so shall we ever be with THE LORD . AND at that same time
HE LIES DOWN THE FIERCE and MIGHTY , THUNDEROUS and DESTRUTIVE wr ath of all might GOD
upon every single human that had DENIED HIM , Denied the LOVE OF THE TRUTH whereby they could be saved
and were thus sent a delusion TO BELIEVE A LIE AND BE DAMNED .
And in that day and on that hour their idols , their inclusvie ecumenical god WILL NOT be able to save
or deliver them . IT decieved them and they loved to have it so .
JESUS WILL NOT BE DENIED . And unto all who do so , KNOWTHIS , YE HAVE DENIED GOD
and only wailing will be heard from such ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

Nowhere, of course. We are constantly having to refute things that people just make up in their imaginations on this forum.