Wrangler
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Reason for The Crusades explained
- Thread starter Debp
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You’ve been asked dozens of questions that you’ve refused to answer. If not answering a question shows not standing for truth … you convicted yourself.
Wrangler:
You seem to think the Crusades killing, raping, and pillaging Muslims, Jews, and other Christians was a good thing. Your question implies the Crusades prevented Jihadi invasions of Europe, thus showing your ignorance of history.
The Crusades were not engaged in to stop Muslims from invading Europe, the Crusades had the aim of controlling Jerusalem and establishment of Latin Christian (Frankish) ‘Crusader States’ along the Eastern Mediterranean.
Many historians tell the familiar, three-stage story, beginning with the crusaders’ initial successes in conquering Jerusalem in 1099 and the establishment of four Crusader States. Then there is the almost total annihilation of those states after Saladin’s reconquest of Jerusalem in 1187 and, finally, the weaker, lingering presence of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, until the eventual fall of Acre in 1291.
Wrangler
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Still no answer to any questions. You must have no commitment to what is true.
Here is the truth you crave so much.
Looking back from the Twenty-First century, one of the most easily-identifiable facts about the medieval Crusades to the Holy Land is that they conspicuously failed. The crusaders were obviously unsuccessful in their military objective to establish lasting control over Jerusalem while the four territories – “the Crusader States” – they established in the Near East did not persist beyond the end of the Thirteenth Century (and the first fell within only a few decades of its establishment).
Wrangler
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”This chapter will detail the rise of Pope Urban II, and his call to Crusade on November 27, 1095 at the Council of Clermont. We shall attempt to provide a narrative for what is arguably the darkest day in Christian history - the day Christianity declared a jihad. The terrifying consequences of that dismal day were so harrowing that the effects still resonate throughout the Middle East, Europe, and Africa. Christianity has never recovered from the darkness of that decision to offer forgiveness and salvation to warriors bent upon the slaughter of any and all adversaries who stood between them and the liberation of Jerusalem.”
(Christian Jihad, p. 82)
@Wrangler is sad the Crusades stopped (see post #1784). Anyone else? You @Armour of God? You @NayborBear?
The day Christianity declared a jihad -> arguably the darkest day in Christian history.
(Christian Jihad, p. 82)
@Wrangler is sad the Crusades stopped (see post #1784). Anyone else? You @Armour of God? You @NayborBear?
The day Christianity declared a jihad -> arguably the darkest day in Christian history.
NayborBear
Active Member
Leviticus 26:17
And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
“The Crusades were mostly a failure. Even from a strictly military point of view, only one was successful, and that success did not last very long. Some of the Crusades were detoured from their original purpose and did even more damage to the relations between the Eastern and Western churches. On balance, they cannot be thought to have been wise or helpful.
Certainly, in our era of renewed engagement with Islam (even if it is forced on us by violence), we should appreciate how the image of the Crusader is used against the West generally and Christians particularly. When I began teaching at Wheaton College (1995), one of my colleagues mentioned his crusade to get the name of the mascot changed from Crusaders. My first reaction was to scoff, but over the years I have come to see that he was right. The word crusader does not mean much to us because we do bot repeat horror stories from the eleventh and twelfth centuries, but in some cultures they do. Thus, when Western Christians arrive in the Middle East innocently wearing t-shirts emblazoned with ‘Crusaders,’ it unintentionally sends the wrong message.
Christians are not Crusaders, but we are called to carry the cross. When Our Lord Jesus said, ‘Take up your cross and follow me,’ he called us not to conquer lands for him militarily but to out to death our sinful nature (on this, see Heidelberg Catechism 43) and, sometimes, even to be crucified for him (as happened in the early church). That is a simple but really important point as we think about how to engage an ever increasingly suspicious and hostile culture.”
(R. Scott Clark, “Rethinking The Crusades”)
Certainly, in our era of renewed engagement with Islam (even if it is forced on us by violence), we should appreciate how the image of the Crusader is used against the West generally and Christians particularly. When I began teaching at Wheaton College (1995), one of my colleagues mentioned his crusade to get the name of the mascot changed from Crusaders. My first reaction was to scoff, but over the years I have come to see that he was right. The word crusader does not mean much to us because we do bot repeat horror stories from the eleventh and twelfth centuries, but in some cultures they do. Thus, when Western Christians arrive in the Middle East innocently wearing t-shirts emblazoned with ‘Crusaders,’ it unintentionally sends the wrong message.
Christians are not Crusaders, but we are called to carry the cross. When Our Lord Jesus said, ‘Take up your cross and follow me,’ he called us not to conquer lands for him militarily but to out to death our sinful nature (on this, see Heidelberg Catechism 43) and, sometimes, even to be crucified for him (as happened in the early church). That is a simple but really important point as we think about how to engage an ever increasingly suspicious and hostile culture.”
(R. Scott Clark, “Rethinking The Crusades”)
The Crusaders slaughtered Muslims, Jews, and Christians. What point are you trying to make in your post?
Wrangler
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Those that condemn the Crusades - and the Christians who carried it out - repeat the woe Jesus referenced in Matthew 23:23, you neglect the weightier matters of the law, justice. Woe to you!
Over 49,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11! Yawn, huh? Woe to you!
As @Armour of God, pointed out, the Crusaders didn't even achieve justice in only initiating 17 battles compared to 550 the Jihadi's initiated. Not 50%, only 3%. Obviously, the Jihadi's didn't learn their lesson as they devised 9/11 + >49,000 attacks after that.
And just as obviously, today's over-spiritualized Christians have not learned the lessons of history. Europe has opened the gates to the invaders. Islam will achieve domination over Europe by birth rate what they failed to via conquest.
Over 49,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11! Yawn, huh? Woe to you!
As @Armour of God, pointed out, the Crusaders didn't even achieve justice in only initiating 17 battles compared to 550 the Jihadi's initiated. Not 50%, only 3%. Obviously, the Jihadi's didn't learn their lesson as they devised 9/11 + >49,000 attacks after that.
And just as obviously, today's over-spiritualized Christians have not learned the lessons of history. Europe has opened the gates to the invaders. Islam will achieve domination over Europe by birth rate what they failed to via conquest.
amigo de christo
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Islam be of anti christ and many are the religoins that be of such a thing .
But islam will NOT be the religion that rules over all religions and peoples and tongues .
IN fact many key leaders of islam , as have many of the jews , as have many of christendom
and of the world bowed the knee to the one world religion of many anti christs that shall lead
them all as one man TO this king and these kings of anti christ peace for the world .
The one world religion , IS NOT islam , NO ITS INCLUSIVISM and soon it will have taken
all , NOT in the lambs book of life to its nimrod we are one mindset .
Its father is the devil and its mother is the harlot and her cup is poured out under the name ECUMENICALISM .
but beleive me its a cup of fornication blended just right to hit the taste bud of E VERY false religion
as well as the decieved in every denomination and place within christendom where they have loved to be decieved .
We better do an exodus and RIGHT NOW out of anything that is in any way connected
to the BIG E , known as but not always called ecumenicalism . The HO has many outward clothes
by which she can dress up in order to decieve any one of any religoin .
TO a baptist she came in as dressed as one , to a methodist she did the same
to the IMAMS and jewish leaders she did the same . This harlot is a very wise one indeed
as is her father the devil . JESUS HAS THE SHEEP and ITS TIME FOR ALL TO Exit anything and from anyone
attached to inclusive ecumeincal intefaith interreligious dialogue and RIGHT NOW .
ITS JESUS preaching time in the building . Bible time in the building .
”LeMay said if we had lost the war we’d all have been prosecuted as war criminals. And I think he’s right. He, and I’d say I, were behaving as war criminals.
LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost. But what makes it immoral if you lose and not immoral if you win?”
(Robert McNamara)
McNamara is discussing the US prosecution of the air campaign in World War II. What connects what he is saying with what happened in the Crusades? The immorality of targeting and killing civilian non-combatants - war crime; which the Muslims and the Catholic Crusaders did.
@Weangler, @Armour of God, @NayborBear
Followers of Jesus shouldn’t be championing war crimes. Followers of Jesus should not acting immorally.
“One thousand years of history - complete with persecution, pacifism, reluctant participation, and Just War parameters - was swept aside, and the ‘Army of God’ conquered the Muslim forces in Acre, Antioch, and finally Jerusalem.”
(Christian Jihad, p. 104)
@Wrangler and his concealed church doesn’t recognize and acknowledge this “swept aside” history @Armour of God. He laments that the Crusades aren’t still going on. You haven’t said that you do too, but I wonder. Do you?
(Christian Jihad, p. 104)
@Wrangler and his concealed church doesn’t recognize and acknowledge this “swept aside” history @Armour of God. He laments that the Crusades aren’t still going on. You haven’t said that you do too, but I wonder. Do you?
That, of course, isn’t true. Jesus gave the teaching and set the example of not killing our enemies for his followers. The Apostles and the early Christians perpetuated the teaching and followed the example.
No one who follows the teaching of Jesus and Apostles is yawning over terrorist attacks.
Those of us who are faithful to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles aren’t “over-spiritualized Christians“ - the devil, no doubt, is pleased that you say we are - nor have we failed to learn the lessons of history. You’re blaming innocent and obedient Christians for the failures of government.
NayborBear
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I'll have to admit and agree with ya Wrangler! I'm becoming more and more convinced that Matthias is "projecting" through his documenting of HIStory?
EVERYTHING is worth dying for! BUT? Not KILLING for in DEFENSE OF!
Bet his family takes heart in this philosophy!
Probably wouldn't even pick up a swatter to exterminate a fly!
Because? Larger fly's just require LARGER SWATTERS!
Which brings to mind this HIStorical record where the God of Israel commanded a War against someone (philistines I think), WHEN He commanded Israel to "KILLZ DEM ALL!" Men, Women, Children, Dogs, Cats, Sheeps, Goats, Donkeys, Horses, Cows, Chickens........EVERYTHING!!
And?
Take NO spoil!
And got really REALLY mad! Even to the point of Israel having to "stone one of their own" because something was taken!
Causes me to ponder what Matthias, or, Jesus or His apostles thought about that?
I’m teaching, not projecting.
No. Everything isn’t worth dying for. What did the Apostles and the early Christians die for?
Bet his family takes heart in this philosophy!
My family takes heart that I obey, teach, and preach the instruction of Jesus and the Apostles.
Flies aren’t human beings. No one is commissioned by Jesus to evangelize insects.
Because? Larger fly's just require LARGER SWATTERS!
Which brings to mind this HIStorical record where the God of Israel commanded a War against someone (philistines I think), WHEN He commanded Israel to "KILLZ DEM ALL!" Men, Women, Children, Dogs, Cats, Sheeps, Goats, Donkeys, Horses, Cows, Chickens........EVERYTHING!!
And?
Take NO spoil!
And got really REALLY mad! Even to the point of Israel having to "stone one of their own" because something was taken!
God directed people differently in Old Testament times than he does through Jesus and the Apostles in New Testament times, and down to our own time.
Causes me to ponder what Matthias, or, Jesus or His apostles thought about that?
Read Jesus, the Apostles and me to find out what we think.
Have you ever killed anyone? Have you ever slaughtered all men, women, children and animals in war?
Wrangler
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Funny that @Anchorite cannot answer the questions summarized again in post #1806. Its so telling of his indoctrination.
Battle of Malta, 1565. 2,500 brave Christians defeated 35,000 Islamic Jihadi's. Thus proving the Crusades only delayed ongoing Jihad against us kafirs. Also, proving Christians of the past did not embrace cowardly pacifism of today's overly spiritualized lot. It wasn't just the Crusaders. @Matthias goes against the history of millions of Christians over the centuries in embracing the weightier matters of the law, justice as Christ informed us and Paul said more explicitly:
Battle of Malta, 1565. 2,500 brave Christians defeated 35,000 Islamic Jihadi's. Thus proving the Crusades only delayed ongoing Jihad against us kafirs. Also, proving Christians of the past did not embrace cowardly pacifism of today's overly spiritualized lot. It wasn't just the Crusaders. @Matthias goes against the history of millions of Christians over the centuries in embracing the weightier matters of the law, justice as Christ informed us and Paul said more explicitly:
1 Corinthians 6:3
Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life.
What you and your concealed identity church allege against me you allege against all Christians who stand against what was done by both Muslims and Christians in the Crusades.
You’re misusing scripture to verbally abuse not just me but all who obey the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
”We do not use the weapons of the world.” - Paul
Wrangler
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What he expressed before is some kind of false dichotomy. OT. NT. It's OK if God commands us but not OK if we decide for ourselves - with much prayer and divine affirmation - that war is justified. Of course, I tore into this like you wouldn't believe.
I've pointed out the Jihadi's have done a lot worse than gather sticks to keep warm on the Sabbath.
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