Moses Law : is NOT made for Christians #3

[PeterAndroz]

@PeterAndroz, I agree that Paul was uniquely appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles. Scripture clearly teaches that.

What I do not see is where Scripture teaches that the writings of James, John, Hebrews, Peter, or even the words of Jesus are no longer doctrinally relevant to believers today.

In fact, Paul himself repeatedly appeals to the teaching of Christ and affirms the unity of the apostolic message.

The Jerusalem apostles extended fellowship to Paul because they recognized the same gospel of grace at work, not because they were preaching contradictory doctrines of salvation (Gal. 2:7-9).

Further, if Hebrews, James, and John are not for the Church, why are they included in the New Testament canon given to the Church? Why does Paul teach that "all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable" (2 Tim. 3:16)?

The issue under discussion is not whether we are justified by faith apart from works. I fully agree with that.

The issue is whether the apostles collectively define saving faith as a living faith that produces obedience, or whether faith is merely a one-time act that can be separated from repentance, perseverance, and fruit.

Appealing to Paul does not solve that question, because Paul himself speaks of "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; 16:26), faith working through love (Gal. 5:6), and the necessity of continuing in the faith (Col. 1:23).

The apostles are not at odds with one another. The challenge is to harmonize all of Scripture, not to set one apostle against another.

When it comes to how to be saved 'today' that teaching is Christ given to only Paul.
Gal 2:7-9 was then, Paul went to one audience, the others to another.
Today we are all one audience > Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15
Harmonizing Scripture is failing to RIGHTLY DIVIDE > 2 Tim 2:15.
eg Was King David the person who taught Adam & Eve how to be saved ?
ALL Scripture is for us to know but not ALL Scripture applies to us today

 

[Gray_Joy]

In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23.


Agreed.


Everything in the Law of Moses is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the rest of the 611 commandments. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit murder, theft, idolatry, and adultery, but we also won't commit kidnapping, rape, and favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Law of Moses.


Chris set a sinless example for us to follow of how to fulfill the Law of Moses and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).


It is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that we should sin no more is the position that we should obey the Law of Moses, which is the opposite of saying that parts of it are for Jews only and not relevant for Christians. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and following what Christ taught is relevant for Christians.


The Bible never refers to the Ten Commandments as being the moral or and never states that God's other laws are not moral laws. It don't see how you can switch between saying that that some of God's laws are not relevant for Christians to speaking against those who say that God's laws are no longer valid.


Jesus said that man shall not live by word alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4).

Are you familiar with the Noahide Covenant?

 

[Gray_Joy]

When it comes to how to be saved 'today' that teaching is Christ given to only Paul.

When you continually reference ,today, how does your argument then comport with the Apostles who were teaching the Gospel at the same time as Paul? And Peter too,who Jesus sent to the Gentiles.

Gal 2:7-9 was then, Paul went to one audience, the others to another.
Today we are all one audience > Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15
Harmonizing Scripture is failing to RIGHTLY DIVIDE > 2 Tim 2:15.
eg Was King David the person who taught Adam & Eve how to be saved ?
ALL Scripture is for us to know but not ALL Scripture applies to us today

 

[Angelina]

When it comes to how to be saved 'today' that teaching is Christ given to only Paul.
Gal 2:7-9 was then, Paul went to one audience, the others to another.
Today we are all one audience > Gal 3:28, 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11, Gal 6:15
Harmonizing Scripture is failing to RIGHTLY DIVIDE > 2 Tim 2:15.
eg Was King David the person who taught Adam & Eve how to be saved ?
ALL Scripture is for us to know but not ALL Scripture applies to us today

@PeterAndroz,
Galatians 2:7–9 is about mission, not multiple gospels. Paul already shuts down that idea in Galatians 1:8–9 ,there is only one gospel, even if an angel preached otherwise.

“Rightly dividing” (2 Tim 2:15) is about accurate handling of Scripture, not dismissing the words of Christ or the other apostles. Paul himself says all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable (2 Tim 3:16).


Jesus, James, Peter, John, and Paul all describe the same salvation: faith that produces repentance and obedience, not a standalone “Paul-only” system.

Isolating Paul from the rest of Scripture isn’t rightly dividing; it’s misreading Paul.

 

[PeterAndroz]

When you continually reference ,today, how does your argument then comport with the Apostles who were teaching the Gospel at the same time as Paul? And Peter too,who Jesus sent to the Gentiles.

Lets see if we can agree when 'today' started
Gal 2:9 that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Peter to one group, Paul to another, there was division
............
Then LATER all are the same, no more division.
If you disagree then why ?
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[PeterAndroz]

@PeterAndroz,
Galatians 2:7–9 is about mission, not multiple gospels. Paul already shuts down that idea in Galatians 1:8–9 ,there is only one gospel, even if an angel preached otherwise.

“Rightly dividing” (2 Tim 2:15) is about accurate handling of Scripture, not dismissing the words of Christ or the other apostles. Paul himself says all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable (2 Tim 3:16).


Jesus, James, Peter, John, and Paul all describe the same salvation: faith that produces repentance and obedience, not a standalone “Paul-only” system.

Isolating Paul from the rest of Scripture isn’t rightly dividing; it’s misreading Paul.

You are welcome to your opinion :)

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

 

[Angelina]

You are welcome to your opinion :)

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

@PeterAndroz, Galatians 1:8–9 already answers the question, Paul himself says any other gospel, including from an apostle, is accursed, so “Paul vs the others” collapses before it even starts.

 

[PeterAndroz]

@PeterAndroz, Galatians 1:8–9 already answers the question, Paul himself says any other gospel, including from an apostle, is accursed, so “Paul vs the others” collapses before it even starts.

We disagree, hopefully you will read the article that I linked for you to study :)

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

 

[Angelina]

We disagree, hopefully you will read the article that I linked for you to study :)

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

@PeterAndroz, Either Galatians 1:8–9 applies universally, or it doesn't; there is no third option where it validates a separate doctrinal framework above Paul’s own words.

 

[PeterAndroz]

We disagree, hopefully you will read the article that I linked for you to study :)

Why Paul? - doctrine.org

Introduction This two-word question is the most important question in New Testament studies. It is not an overstatement to say that without a correct answer to this question little can be understood of Christianity. The whole doctrine of ecclesiology, God’s…

doctrine.org

1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the Gospel, do you believe there is another for today ?

 

[Angelina]

1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 is the Gospel, do you believe there is another for today ?

No, there is one gospel @PeterAndroz (1 Cor 15:1–4), which is exactly why Galatians 1:8–9 condemns any attempt to redefine it, even if it’s claimed in Paul’s name or separated from Christ’s own teaching.

 

[PeterAndroz]

No, there is one gospel @PeterAndroz (1 Cor 15:1–4), which is exactly why Galatians 1:8–9 condemns any attempt to redefine it, even if it’s claimed in Paul’s name or separated from Christ’s own teaching.

Is 1 Cor 15:1-4 the Gospel that Christ (Gal 1:11-12) taught to Paul ?

 

[Gray_Joy]

Lets see if we can agree when 'today' started
Gal 2:9 that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Peter to one group, Paul to another, there was division
............
Then LATER all are the same, no more division.
If you disagree then why ?
Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

OK Lets see.
I believe there is only one eternal Gospel. Timelines do not separate its application.

"Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" Matthew 10:5-6

Matthew 15 , Jesus says he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel there too.

That passage can lead some to think only Jews were to be taught the Gospel.
That's not so.

Jesus was sent first to the Jews because he was their Messiah of the prophecy. He was establishing his Kingdom in Jewish law.

I think you are forgetting that Jesus later commanded his Apostles to go into all the world and deliver the Good News. Acts 1 and also in Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

This is what is known as The Great Commission. Luke 24,Mark 16.

Apostle Peter was sent by Jesus to the Gentiles. Matthew 16. Peter opened the way to Pentecost in Jerusalem as revealed in Acts 2.

For me,this is key to show there is only one Gospel in the Testament.
In Acts 10 Jesus sent Peter to Caesarea to preach to Cornelius and to the Gentiles there. So they would know they did not have to convert to Judaism in order to be Saved.

There is one Gospel for all people for all time.

 

[Soyeong]

Are you familiar with the Noahide Covenant?

Indeed.

 

[Angelina]

Is 1 Cor 15:1-4 the Gospel that Christ (Gal 1:11-12) taught to Paul ?

@Peter, Yes, Paul says he received the gospel “by revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:11–12). But that same gospel is not different in content from what Christ already preached in His earthly ministry; it is the fulfillment and proclamation of it after the resurrection.


Paul himself insists there is one faith, one Lord, one gospel foundation (Eph. 4:4–5; 1 Cor. 3:11). He does not present a separate message, but the revealed meaning of Christ’s finished work.


So the issue is not whether Christ taught Paul the gospel; it is whether that gospel contradicts Christ’s own words. And Scripture consistently says it does not.

 

[PeterAndroz]

@Peter, Yes, Paul says he received the gospel “by revelation of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 1:11–12). But that same gospel is not different in content from what Christ already preached in His earthly ministry; it is the fulfillment and proclamation of it after the resurrection.


Paul himself insists there is one faith, one Lord, one gospel foundation (Eph. 4:4–5; 1 Cor. 3:11). He does not present a separate message, but the revealed meaning of Christ’s finished work.


So the issue is not whether Christ taught Paul the gospel; it is whether that gospel contradicts Christ’s own words. And Scripture consistently says it does not.

Just basic questions so we can see where we agree or not with each other.
Do you agree that 1 Cor 15:1-4 teaches that you and I are saved if :-
We believe that :-
Christ died for our sins, was buried, rose again on the third day
Besides that what else do you believe those verses teach that is required to be saved ?
..
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[Gray_Joy]

Indeed.

Then you know the Mitzvah,the Law of God,applied to Jews. And Gentiles who lived within the borders of Israel. Those Gentiles were known as Ger Toshav, Resident Aliens.

The Noahide Covenant made the 7 Noahide laws universal.
The 7th law permitted Gentiles to make laws and a court. As long as those laws followed the moral framework in the Decalogue,the ten commandments.

While the phrase,moral laws, isn't specifically written in the Old Testament, theologians and scholars,Gentile and Jewish, recognize them as that. And that are part of the Tripartite Division of the Law of God.The Moral,Civil,and Ceremonial laws.

 

[Angelina]

Just basic questions so we can see where we agree or not with each other.
Do you agree that 1 Cor 15:1-4 teaches that you and I are saved if :-
We believe that :-
Christ died for our sins, was buried, rose again on the third day
Besides that what else do you believe those verses teach that is required to be saved ?
..
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Yes, 1 Corinthians 15:1–4 clearly states the core gospel facts. Paul preached: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.

But Paul is not reducing salvation to a standalone checklist in that passage. He is summarizing the message he delivered to the Corinthians, not isolating it from everything else he teaches elsewhere.

In the same letter and across his writings, Paul includes believing faith (Rom. 10:9–10), repentance (Acts 17:30), obedience of faith (Rom. 1:5), and perseverance in the gospel (Col. 1:23). That isn’t adding to 1 Cor 15, it is describing what it means to truly “believe” what he is preaching.

So the real question isn’t whether 1 Cor 15 is the gospel; it is. The question is; "whether we are allowed to shrink Paul’s own teaching down to only that passage while ignoring how he defines saving faith everywhere else."

 

[PeterAndroz]

Yes, 1 Corinthians 15:1–4 clearly states the core gospel facts. Paul preached: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.

But Paul is not reducing salvation to a standalone checklist in that passage. He is summarizing the message he delivered to the Corinthians, not isolating it from everything else he teaches elsewhere.

In the same letter and across his writings, Paul includes believing faith (Rom. 10:9–10), repentance (Acts 17:30), obedience of faith (Rom. 1:5), and perseverance in the gospel (Col. 1:23). That isn’t adding to 1 Cor 15, it is describing what it means to truly “believe” what he is preaching.

So the real question isn’t whether 1 Cor 15 is the gospel; it is. The question is; "whether we are allowed to shrink Paul’s own teaching down to only that passage while ignoring how he defines saving faith everywhere else."

Do you agree that a believer is SEALED with the HS till the day of redemption once they trust, hear & believe the gospel ?
.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Angelina]

Do you agree that a believer is SEALED with the HS till the day of redemption once they trust, hear & believe the gospel ?
.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Yes, I agree Scripture teaches that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13) and that this sealing is “unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). That speaks to God’s preserving work in salvation.

But sealing does not cancel the New Testament’s repeated warnings and calls to continue in faith, abide in Christ, and not fall away (Col. 1:23; Heb. 3:14; John 15:6). Those are addressed to real believers, not hypothetical ones.

And bringing it back to the point we were actually discussing: this still doesn’t support the idea of isolating Paul into a separate “Paul-only” doctrinal system. The same Paul who speaks of sealing also insists on one gospel, one foundation, and one faith shared by all the apostles (Eph. 4:4–5; 1 Cor. 3:11; Gal. 1:8–9).

So the question remains the same: are we reading Paul in harmony with the rest of Scripture or using selective texts to override it?