Should I buy a sword?
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Gray_Joy
Active Member
We will never change strong pacifists opinions.
Jesus was God of the Old Testament. And any reader knows that God was not passive.Nor were his Hebrew faithful.
Jesus told his Disciples to buy swords even if they had to sell their cloaks.Strong passivity doesn't command such things.
I appreciate someone knows themselves so well that they don't believe their life is worth saving from violent people who want to take it from them.
The Apostles Martyrdom does not show us they did not use the swords Jesus commanded them to own.
Their Martyrdom shows they died at the hands of evil intentions that God allowed to be victorious over them. God has a plan.
And we should never ever forget what tells us Jesus would not command passivity in the face of evil.
Heaven has an Army.
And we should remember Matthew 10:34-36 too.
And in the end times prophecy Jesus is not passive at all.
I just hope,pray,if I ever meet a person who means me harm that a pacifist isn't my only hope.
Sure,I'll see Heaven if it goes all the way left. But,I really hope God doesn't plan for me to die like that.
You have successfully distorted the pacifism of Jesus into glorification of violence.
Jesus said just two swords were enough. He did not say all disciples should carry swords. Two were enough, as He said, so He would be reckoned among the transgressors and be arrested.
When Peter used his sword as a weapon, did Jesus proclaim, “Strike him again! Attack with the two swords!”??
No, Jesus rebuked Peter and condemned weapons by saying all who draw the sword perish by the sword.
Martyrs died because they obeyed the pacifism of Jesus and refused to defend themselves with weapons.
Book of Acts does not record any believers using weapons.
You hope and pray that if someone tries to do you harm, a pacifist will not be your only hope?
So you do not trust God to protect you, and you do not carry a weapon for self-defense, but hope an armed stranger will rescue you? Got it.
You oppose the pacifist teachings of Jesus. Some of us seek to conform to the non-violence of Jesus:
Turn the other cheek.
Love your enemies.
Do good unto those who abuse you.
Pray for those who persecute you.
Resist not an evil man.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
Put away thy sword.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
We fight not against flesh and blood.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
My kingdom is not of this world, thus my servants do not fight.
Gray_Joy
Active Member
I recognize scripture means what God intends to say. As in reporting the wars he led in the Old Testament.
I do not apply corrective thought to what God tells us of himself.
He cannot be a hypocrite.
God's kingdom is not of this world? And yet,there was a war in the kingdom of Heaven.
God's kingdom is not of this world? Yet!
The Book of the Revelations from Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John tells us there will be wars. And Jesus will lead yet another army.
You are committed to rewording God's words.
That's dangerous.
You can just obey Jesus simple and clear words, instead of putting your trust in violence and weapons.
Turn the other cheek.
Love your enemies.
Do good unto those who abuse you.
Pray for those who persecute you.
Resist not an evil man.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
Put away thy sword.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
We fight not against flesh and blood.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
My kingdom is not of this world, thus my servants do not fight.j
Gray_Joy
Active Member
I know you keep repeating yourself and elect what parts of God's history to ignore. Because it nullifies your preferred narrative.
You can't discuss God's own words when you don't respect all of them.
When you think self defense advocates glorify violence, God says of you, "But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
1Timothy 5:8
Luke 11:21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;
Psalm 144
Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle; he is my steadfast love and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield and he in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples under me. O Lord, what is man that you regard him, or the son of man that you think of him? Man is like a breath; his days are like a passing shadow. Bow your heavens, O Lord, and come down! Touch the mountains so that they smoke!
Jesus is the same yesterday,today and forever.
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
"Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open." Hosea 13:16
1Samuel 15:3
"Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."
NayborBear
Active Member
And "GOD FORBID" should mankind EVER bring this "Army" to Earth!
The "adversary/ies" can! And do! MIND YA!
But an "Army of GOD" here on earth?
GOD wouldn't "be caught DEAD" doing something like that!
Would HE?
Wrangler
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Also, no believers in the book of Roman’s, in chapter 6, verse 24 used weapons on a Tuesday to defend themselves. What you say is that compelling! No need to obey the Lord and buy a sword the book of acts …
Irrelevant question. Was Paul led by the Holy Spirit and inspired to write what he did?
Fallacious.
Because an angel told Elizabeth that John wasn’t to drink strong wine or drink:
Luk 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
You’re the one ignoring context by ignoring numerous passages in the NT that speak of non-violence. Not only that, some of the NT books were written during times of persecution and yet there is no example of any believer fighting back nor a single command to do so. But, there are commands to endure, to pray, to leave room for God’s vengeance, to repay evil with good, etc.
It sure does; it it very important context that you’re ignoring. Why is it that you can only appeal to one NT verse? Why is it that you ignore numerous NT verses that speak of non-violence?
Mat 5:5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
…
Mat 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
…
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Luk 6:31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
Luk 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luk 6:33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luk 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
...
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
...
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
1Co 4:12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;
1Co 4:13 when slandered, we entreat. We have become, and are still, like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things.
2Co 12:10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
2Th 1:4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.
2Ti 3:11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me.
1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.
Very importantly, we should consider Jesus's example:
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Act 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.
To ignore all that and simply appeal to Jesus’s statement to buy a sword, while also ignoring the immediate context, is to be driven by either fear or hatred of others, or both.
Gray_Joy
Active Member
In the Old Testament God used violence,even killing, to establish his kingdom on Earth.
Does it then comport that God would become passive in the New Testament no matter what?
Especially when we have Luke 11:21 to consider, " When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe."
And of course ,again, there's the book of Revelation. No passive activities going on there.
Does it then comport that God would become passive in the New Testament no matter what?
Especially when we have Luke 11:21 to consider, " When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe."
And of course ,again, there's the book of Revelation. No passive activities going on there.
To establish his people and bring judgements against evil and wicked nations, yes. His kingdom is established through followers of Christ, as Jesus so often said.
Where do you get passive from? The mode changes—it’s spiritual warfare instead of physical—but I would hardly call it passive. Followers of Christ go by what Scripture clearly states, when it does so.
This is precisely why context is important:
Luk 11:20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luk 11:21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;
Luk 11:22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.
Jesus is clearly teaching that his casting out demons and setting a people free—claiming the spoils—are the result of him being stronger than Satan. As I said, the mode temporarily changes, but it isn’t passive.
To try and use that verse to support physical arms and physical violence is to completely divorce it from its context.
God will return and execute judgement on those who oppose him, but that is not now and nowhere in the NT are followers of Christ commanded to fight against persecution. That is why we don’t have a single example in the NT of even one believer fighting against persecution. But we do have a lot of other commands to follow, such as enduring persecution and fleeing it when possible.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I still fail to see what connection the verses you have now quoted, 1 Peter 2:5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, have with the question of Christians retaliating with physical weapons against those who oppose or persecute them. Being lively stones, a spiritual house, offering spiritual sacrifices, and the existence of AntiChrist say nothing about physical weapons.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Is there a typo in your post? I ask because Romans chapter 6 only has 23 verses, so what verse did you mean?
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But the context of Luke 11:21 is not of a physical battle against human enemies. Here is is in context:
(Luk 11:17) But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.
(Luk 11:18) If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub.
(Luk 11:19) And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
(Luk 11:20) But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
(Luk 11:21) When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace.
(Luk 11:22) But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoils.
The context then is the spiritual war between Satan and the demons, and mankind. Or are you suggesting that we are to attack Satan or demons with physical weapons?
Retaliating with physical violence would seem to contradict Jesus' teaching on vengeance.
However, most Christians would respond with physical violence if they could protect a vulnerable person under attack.
So it seems we need to find a balance between these two responses.
This is where we need to rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
If it is a situation where we would feel comfortable seeing a law enforcement officer using physical violence to subdue a perpetrator, then I would feel comfortable about anyone in the vicinity taking action.
The first responder to the shooters in the Bondi Beach massacre last year here in Australia was a man who wrestled a rifle away from one of the gunmen before police arrived. I have only admiration for his actions.
However, most Christians would respond with physical violence if they could protect a vulnerable person under attack.
So it seems we need to find a balance between these two responses.
This is where we need to rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
If it is a situation where we would feel comfortable seeing a law enforcement officer using physical violence to subdue a perpetrator, then I would feel comfortable about anyone in the vicinity taking action.
The first responder to the shooters in the Bondi Beach massacre last year here in Australia was a man who wrestled a rifle away from one of the gunmen before police arrived. I have only admiration for his actions.
Wrangler
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No typo. My post remains correct. v24 doesn't say they used weapons on a Tuesday. The absence of that is compelling, isn't?
Ephesians 6:
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole amour of GOD, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the feiry darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of GOD:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication for all saints;
After Jesus ascension did the 12 until to the 13th Apostles, used a 'sword' to defend themselves when they were attacked and arrested for righteousness sake?
No.
Aren't they not called to lay down one's life for righteousness sake like their Master the 'fristfruit' who did that, or take one's life?
Even Jesus is God the Son where the FATHER can send legions of angels, did not use such privilage and non the less even prevented His disicples to call fire from Heaven.
On the other hand, we know that the 12 disciples struggled understanding some of Jesus' teachings, example, 'Eat my flash and drink my blood'.
Also they've not received the Holy Ghost yet, and since Jesus was still with them they lacked nothing during His presence.
Jesus mentioned that 'verse' to them when He's about to taken away from them, and they'll have to make it on their own in faith as disciple whilst turn Apostles.
If He meant about a physical sword, and agreeing that 2 was enough for the 12 disciples and journey, don't you think is probably for physical survival purpose after Him?
Since also a sword can be used for making food or making tents etc on their journey, and moreover they're called to be lenders and not borrowers, or in other word, beggars.
In John's epistel to the church, he did commend 2 believers who did not accept offering from an unbeliever for their journey and the Gospel.
Therefore we can learn in context of the Holy Bible scripture and sound doctrine many things from this one subject.
And not fall back into worldly gibberish carnal thinking and wisdom, which GOD considers them to be 'folly'.
In the case of Constantine, probably GOD's official servant on earth like in the Old Testament Heathen kings who served HIS people, since to bring peace to Christianity.
Another thing to ponder is, Jesus rebuked Peter, from the 2 swords the disciples had, Peter used one of it for the wrong reason, to fight back and protect the Lord from being arrested.
'Put back the sword', is one thing just for the sake that the prophecy must come to pass, and non of the disciples should preventg it.
But to conclued generally to His disciples and we're the next generation to follow likewsie, saying, 'Those who live by the sword die by the sword', is the final curtain.
An interesting subject to bring forth as a reminder and stir up of our memory and this is what am able to feedback from my spirit.
Thank you and shalom from the FATHER because of Lord Jesus Christ.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Verse 24 doesn't say anything, because there is no such verse. Saying that a non-existent Bible verse doesn't say something is not compelling at all, because a non-existent verse doesn't say anything.No typo. My post remains correct. v24 doesn't say they used weapons on a Tuesday. The absence of that is compelling, isn't?
Wrangler
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Yup. That’s my point about Acts. @Anchorite keeps bringing up what it does NOT say as if that should be compelling.
He’s committing the fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance, using the absence of evidence as evidence. I did the same thing to show the fallacy.
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