Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[David in NJ]

Dave I believe that scripture clearly teaches that (The Beast) will be made a world spectacle when (The False Prophet) calls fire down from heaven before him

This deception in false miracles will be used in deceiving the world into receiving the mark and worshipping the image, it's not going to be a world secret, it will be front page news on every station, "Don't Be Deceived"!

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

AGREE
and
Good Morning

 

[PinSeeker]

Wipe that stupid smile off your stupid face. Your post is as stupid as anything that anyone could ever imagine. As are the rest of your stupid posts…

All you’re doing is showing your own ignorance. The question, then, is whether that’s willful or not, but that matters not in the end…

your stupid belief that God purposely creates people with no ability and no opportunity to have eternal life that are guaranteed to spend eternity in eternal torment. Now, THAT is stupid.

I agree, but that’s not my belief at all. Now, if you can present to me anything I have said I do believe and then present an unavoidable implication that is obviously false and that I don’t believe ~ as I have done here with you ~ then I would have to see that contradiction and rethink some things. And that has been my point concerning what, again, you have said, verbatim, you believe.

So here it is in terms of logic:

A —> a(1) and a(2)

• A is your stated belief
• a(1) and a(2) are the unavoidable implications of A

Logically, one cannot believe one side of the arrow and not the other. If one believes A ~ as you do ~ and does not believe a(1) and/or a(2) ~ and I am fully aware and acknowledging of the fact that you don’t ~ then there is a disconnect, a contradiction in his thinking. Such is the case with you, and that has been my point.

Nothing can be more stupid than to say God doesn't want all people to repent and to be saved…

Agree; yes I have never said that, nor would I…

You can't get any more stupid than believing that God did not send His Son to die for the sins of literally all people in the whole world so that whoever in the whole world who believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6).

Agree; yes I have never believed that, nor would I.

You know, it’s a curious thing: It makes you so angry for anyone to say you believe something that you don’t believe and that you have explicitly said you don’t believe, and that’s understandable, for sure. But yet you do that very thing, time and time again, not just to me but to others also. So yeah, curious…

And back to what I have said in this post, I mean I know you’re not stupid, or ignorant, per se, buuuuut…

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All you’re doing is showing your own ignorance.

You know, it’s a curious thing: It makes you so angry for anyone to say you believe something that you don’t believe and that you have explicitly said you don’t believe, and that’s understandable, for sure.

You blatantly misrepresent what I believe even after I explicitly explain what I believe. Because you are not an honest person.

But yet you do that very thing, time and time again, not just to me but to others also. So yeah, curious…

And back to what I have said in this post, I mean I know you’re not stupid, or ignorant, per se, buuuuut…

LOL. Your insincerity comes shining through with every post you make. You have a very serious problem with dishonesty. You know that you do think I'm stupid in a way and I think the same of you. Why not just be honest about it instead of saying "buuuuut..."? What you're really saying is "Out of a desire for my post to not get deleted for going over the line, I'm not going to explicitly say that you're stupid, buuuuut I do believe that you are stupid".

 

[Truth7t7]

---

QUOTE
"Doesn't look like (The Beast) is ruling the earth to me, as seen in the scripture below"

That is because you omit rev 12 and 13.

The future 42 month tribulation will be a complete replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the Holy Spirit sealed church on earth is protected

The scripture below shows how the unsealed, unsaved, wicked will be tormented 5 months wishing to die, and yes the command is not to hurt the Holy Spirit sealed Church on earth, only those without God's seal will be tormented

Why do you disregard God's protection of the Church on earth during the tribulation?

Yes just as the plagues fell upon the Egyptians and not the Hebrews, it will be the very same during the 42 months of the (Two Witnessesl)

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

---

The future 42 month tribulation will be a complete replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the Holy Spirit sealed church on earth is protected

The scripture below shows how the unsealed, unsaved, wicked will be tormented 5 months wishing to die, and yes the command is not to hurt the Holy Spirit sealed Church on earth, only those without God's seal will be tormented

Why do you disregard God's protection of the Church on earth during the tribulation?

Yes just as the plagues fell upon the Egyptians and not the Hebrews, it will be the very same during the 42 months of the (Two Witnessesl)

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I'm curious about how you see this exactly. How exactly do you think that Christians will avoid literal global plagues? In the case of what happened in Egypt, the Jews were physically isolated from where the plagues took place, so God could direct the plagues away from where they were located without them being affected. So, how exactly do you think Christians will avoid these literal plagues that you think will take place globally? They can't reasonably be taken to an isolated place on the earth for protection, right? I would assume you just believe that Christians will be supernaturally protected while these plagues are only affecting unbelievers around them? Is that accurate? I'm just asking out of curiosity and not trying to argue with you about this since I know we'll never agree about it. I just want to understand your view better.

 

[Truth7t7]

Nope.
In fact, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK is when the AC descecrates the temple.
(7 yr trib like God's word says).
...around Daniel ch 7

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the future armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building. Luke 21:24, Rev 11:2

The 70th literal week will see (The Beast/The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[David in NJ]

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the future armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building. Luke 21:24, Rev 11:2

The 70th literal week will see (The Beast/The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How many weeks did God Say is required for:

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

[Truth7t7]

I would assume you just believe that Christians will be supernaturally protected while these plagues are only affecting unbelievers around them? Is that accurate?

It appears your "god" lives in a shoebox, or your ignorant of biblical truth

Read the simple and clear words before your eyes, God's plagues upon the wicked world will passover the Church on earth, those that have been sealed by God the Holy Spirit won't be harmed, Eph 1:13, 4:30

The future 42 month great tribulation in plagues brought by the (Two Witnesses) will be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and God's Church on earth will be protected

Exodus 12:12-13KJV
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Revelation 9:4KJV
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

 

[Truth7t7]

How many weeks did God Say is required for:

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Daniel's future 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

 

[David in NJ]

Daniel's future 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

When did the 490 literal days begin?

 

[Truth7t7]

When did the 490 literal days begin?

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build (The Wall & Street) unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week or 49 day period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the future armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building. Luke 21:24, Rev 11:2

The 70th literal week will see (The Beast/The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

 

[David in NJ]

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build (The Wall & Street) unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the future armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building. Luke 21:24, Rev 11:2

The 70th literal week will see (The Beast/The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Thank You @Truth7t7

God Says that 70 weeks are DETERMINED
Determined by GOD means = REQUIRED

Please review your analysis and please specify when the 490 days BEGAN and when the 70th Week was Completed.

 

[KUWN]

I agree, and so does Peter as he uses Joel's prophesy as proof the day of the LORD the Old Covenant prophets foretell came at Pentecost with evidence of the Holy Spirit being poured out just as the prophet foretells He would be.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I really don't understand how people can read these words and continue to argue that we are still waiting for the day of the LORD the prophets of Old foretell would come. We aren't looking and waiting for the Lord to come, since the advent of the cross, resurrection, and ascension we are looking and waiting for the last day of the Lord that shall come when Christ comes again.

 

[KUWN]

I agree, and so does Peter as he uses Joel's prophesy as proof the day of the LORD the Old Covenant prophets foretell came at Pentecost with evidence of the Holy Spirit being poured out just as the prophet foretells He would be.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I really don't understand how people can read these words and continue to argue that we are still waiting for the day of the LORD the prophets of Old foretell would come. We aren't looking and waiting for the Lord to come, since the advent of the cross, resurrection, and ascension we are looking and waiting for the last day of the Lord that shall come when Christ comes again.

I am equally dumfounded how people can attribute Jewish Dispensation passages in Joel chapters 2 to the mystery Church.

 

[rwb]

I am equally dumfounded how people can attribute Jewish Dispensation passages in Joel chapters 2 to the mystery Church.

Aren't Jewish people also part of humanity, therefore also among "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved " during this age/day/time the prophets of Old foretell is the day of the Lord?