Revelation chapter 11 questions

[shepherdsword]

But why can't the destroyer be another name for satan? It does call him the king and satan is the ruler of darkness

The way I see it....the destroyer is a special class of angel that was confined to the abyss until the 5th Trumpet. Satan is already free to roam the earth so it's not him

Apollyon or the destroyer:

Rv 9:1-2 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rv 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Satan:

1 Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[shepherdsword]

According to the [worldly] time keeping of men not yet born at that time, they seemingly had not yet been judged or rewarded. But neither were they even born at the time of the cross, nor even those long dead, seemingly were not crucified with Christ--but that is not what is written. As Paul gave witness of himself and "those who are Christ's" "have been crucified with Christ."

And to complete Revelation 11:18, even the "angry"--"Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him."

I'm not following you here...I mean agree that we who belong to Christ are crucified with him. I just don't see how that equates to a future judgement of the righteous and the wicked.

 

[Davidpt]

But why can't the destroyer be another name for satan? It does call him the king and satan is the ruler of darkness

Sometimes it's simply a matter of being logical about something.

Let's look at from this angle again.

Let's start here first.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.


Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These meant here---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads--are clearly on satan's team. So why would he be commanding the locusts to torment his own ppl? How can that not equal this if satan is behind this---a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand?

Do you disagree that these are enemies of God---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads? If you don't disagree, yet still insist satan is behind this, you then need to logically explain exactly what satan has to gain by doing this? It benefits his kingdom exactly how, by having, via these locusts, men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads, tormented?

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me Amil's need this king to be in the pit with the locusts, to then emerge with them, and that this king needs to be satan for doctrinal reasons rather than does the text actually support this. Therefore, proving in their mind, satan is in the pit in this age not the next age, and that he comes out of the pit during trumpet 5, apparently.

Except we still have to make sense out of what satan has to gain by having these locusts tormenting men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads?

If we look further in ch 9, we see the following. Granted, not meaning these locusts, but that is beside the point since we can use this example to maybe explain the purpose of the locusts tormenting the lost. Except they never die during that ordeal, as opposed to verse 20-21 where some are actually killed by these plagues.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Apparently, it might have do with getting the lost to repent, something satan would never want the lost to do but God would.

 

[Marty fox]

Sometimes it's simply a matter of being logical about something.

Let's look at from this angle again.

Let's start here first.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.


Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These meant here---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads--are clearly on satan's team. So why would he be commanding the locusts to torment his own ppl? How can that not equal this if satan is behind this---a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Do you disagree that these are enemies of God---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads? If you don't disagree, yet still insist satan is behind this, you then need to explain exactly what satan has to gain by doing this? It benefits his kingdom exactly how, by having, via these locusts, men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads, tormented?

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me Amil's need this king to be in the pit with the locusts, to then emerge with them, and that this king needs to be satan. Therefore, proving in their mind, satan is in the pit in this age not the next age, and that he comes out of the pit during trumpet 5, apparently.

WE still have to make sense out of what satan has to gain by having these locusts tormenting men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads?

If we look further in ch 9, we see the following

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Apparently, it might have do with getting the lost to repent, something satan would never want the lost to do but God would.

With that logic how do you explain drug gangs having gang wars?

When Jesus said "how can a kingdom be divided by itself" He was talking about demonic forces that all work together.

Demons laugh when they see evil people kill each other because they won their souls that why they deceive

 

[ScottA]

I'm not following you here...I mean agree that we who belong to Christ are crucified with him. I just don't see how that equates to a future judgement of the righteous and the wicked.

That is the point, the error of so many, literally most of Christendom--that what occurred in the time of Christ somehow equates to each person being crucified, and saved, and judged, etc. in the future. That is world-speak math--but that is not what the scriptures are revealing....they are revealing the reality of God who is timeless, eternal, and this world and people in their own time--are not. That is the revelation that every word of scripture points to. God in scripture...and in history...is translating what is actually true into a world that is passing, to people who are passing away. And we are suppose to catch on.

 

[Marty fox]

Sometimes it's simply a matter of being logical about something.

Let's look at from this angle again.

Let's start here first.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.


Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These meant here---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads--are clearly on satan's team. So why would he be commanding the locusts to torment his own ppl? How can that not equal this if satan is behind this---a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand?

Do you disagree that these are enemies of God---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads? If you don't disagree, yet still insist satan is behind this, you then need to logically explain exactly what satan has to gain by doing this? It benefits his kingdom exactly how, by having, via these locusts, men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads, tormented?

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me Amil's need this king to be in the pit with the locusts, to then emerge with them, and that this king needs to be satan for doctrinal reasons rather than does the text actually support this. Therefore, proving in their mind, satan is in the pit in this age not the next age, and that he comes out of the pit during trumpet 5, apparently.

Except we still have to make sense out of what satan has to gain by having these locusts tormenting men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads?

If we look further in ch 9, we see the following. Granted, not meaning these locusts, but that is beside the point since we can use this example to maybe explain the purpose of the locusts tormenting the lost. Except they never die during that ordeal, as opposed to verse 20-21 where some are actually killed by these plagues.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Apparently, it might have do with getting the lost to repent, something satan would never want the lost to do but God would.

Its making a statement that they won't repent not saying that they might or will

 

[shepherdsword]

That is the point, the error of so many, literally most of Christendom--that was in the time of Christ somehow equates to each person being crucified, and saved, and judged, etc. in the future. That is world-speak math--but that is not what the scriptures are revealing....they are revealing the reality of God who is timeless, eternal, and this world and people in their own time--are not. That is the revelation that every world of scripture points to. God in scripture...and in history...is translating what is actually true into a world that is passing, to people who are passing away. And we are suppose to catch on.

It is speaking of a literal future judgement. It is speaking of this:

2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We are crucified with Christ but we will be judged later for our current deeds.

 

[ScottA]

It is speaking of a literal future judgement. It is speaking of this:

2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We are crucified with Christ but we will be judged later for our current deeds.

Sorry I had some typos in my last post (I corrected them)--

But again--so it would seem from a worldly perspective, but that is not the reality of God. We are talking about acts of God...and He "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Meaning, no, but everything that Jesus accomplished, He did as a man in his own time, but as God it is true that "It is finished" actually means everything was finished--then, "in the twinkling of an eye." Which is a saying given for events of God without time.

All of which, for "all truth" and a complete understanding, only comes with "the renewing of your mind" and letting go of this worldly perspective and adopting a Godly perspective. In that reality--everything before the cross actually occurred before-the-fact, while everything after the cross occurs after-the-fact. When the world passes fully away--that is all we have. That is the reality of God--whether it be eternal life or eternal damnation.

Meaning there is a better eternal explanation for every time-based belief or understanding of every Godly event. Worldly events, to the contrary, are like "silence in heaven for half an hour" while God waits--another figure of speech given for our temporal "precept upon precept" understanding. But we can't do that forever.

 

[Truth7t7]

We are crucified with Christ but we will be judged later for our current deeds.

The righteous saved will receive reward for their righteous works upon earth, those saved that have little or no righteous works will be saved with little or no reward

1 Corinthians 3:11-15KJV
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I tend to disagree for some of the following reasons.

In Revelation 9:11---They have as king over them the angel of the abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

The text identifies this figure as---an angel (or messenger), of the abyss, king over the demonic locusts, named Abaddon (Destruction) and Apollyon (Destroyer).

It does not add---who is satan, the devil, the dragon, or that ancient serpent.

You call them "demonic locusts". So, I assume you mean they are demons/fallen angels who are symbolically represented as locusts? If so, what does other scripture say about who the demons/fallen angels have as their king? Satan. The demons or fallen angels are called "his angels" (Revelation 12:9, Matthew 25:41). So, what other king do they have besides Satan? I don't believe they have any other king.

Whenever Revelation wants readers to know someone is satan, it usually says so very plainly. For example, Revelation 12:9 identifies the dragon as---the great dragon---that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and satan.

John gives multiple identifying names there. He does not do that in Revelation 9.

That alone is not really evidence to support the claim that it's not referring to Satan. Not all of the symbols in the book of Revelation are explained as to what they represent. For example, we're not told that the locusts symbolically represent demons, but we discern that.

Why some interpreters still identify Apollyon with satan, such as you?

There are several reasons.

1. satan is associated with the abyss elsewhere.

In Revelation 20:1-3, satan is bound and thrown into the abyss.

Some conclude that if satan is imprisoned there, he is naturally its ruler.

However, this is not required by the text. In Revelation 20, satan is a prisoner, while another angel possesses the key and authority over the abyss.

That represents Jesus (angelos - messenger) or an angel of God (maybe Michael), not a demon/fallen angel. Why would God give any fallen angel authority over the abyss?

That actually suggests satan does not control it.

It doesn't suggest one thing or another about who rules over the fallen angels. Of course, God rules over all, but Satan is always portrayed as being the ruler of the fallen angels (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41).

Plus, nowhere in Revelation 9 does it ever say that king is also imprisoned in the pit with the locusts.

Why wouldn't he be? Why would his followers be imprisoned, but not their king? How can he be said to be their king if he doesn't even have access to communicate with them?

One can be a king over them without having having to be imprisoned with them.

How exactly?

To be fair though, since the text doesn't state either way, maybe the king is trapped in there with them, and maybe he isn't.

Apart from any doctrinal bias one way or another, I think the natural thing to assume is he is there with them. Of course, I don't even believe it's talking about them being literally trapped in a literal place, but I'm just talking from that perspective for the sake of argument.

2. The title Destroyer

Apollyon literally means Destroyer.

Jesus says in John 10:10: The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.

Since satan destroys, some, such as you, conclude the destroyer must be satan.

But destroyer is a description, not a unique personal name. Scripture applies destructive activity to many agents---God sends destroying angels. Human armies destroy. Demons destroy. satan destroys.

The title alone does not identify the person.

3. satan is leader of evil spirits

Since the locusts are demonic beings and have a king, some argue their king must be satan.

This is possible, but not necessary.

The New Testament also speaks of---rulers, authorities, principalities, powers.

There appears to be a hierarchy among evil spirits. A high-ranking demonic angel could command these creatures without being satan himself.

Yes, there does appear to be some kind of hierarchy among fallen angels just as there appears to be among God's angels, but would anyone but Satan be called their king? Scripture makes it clear that Satan is at the top of the hierarchy. It seems that there can only be one king over the fallen angels and that would be Satan.

 

[Marty fox]

Sometimes it's simply a matter of being logical about something.

Let's look at from this angle again.

Let's start here first.

Mark 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.


Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These meant here---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads--are clearly on satan's team. So why would he be commanding the locusts to torment his own ppl? How can that not equal this if satan is behind this---a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand?

Do you disagree that these are enemies of God---men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads? If you don't disagree, yet still insist satan is behind this, you then need to logically explain exactly what satan has to gain by doing this? It benefits his kingdom exactly how, by having, via these locusts, men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads, tormented?

I could be wrong here, but it seems to me Amil's need this king to be in the pit with the locusts, to then emerge with them, and that this king needs to be satan for doctrinal reasons rather than does the text actually support this. Therefore, proving in their mind, satan is in the pit in this age not the next age, and that he comes out of the pit during trumpet 5, apparently.

Except we still have to make sense out of what satan has to gain by having these locusts tormenting men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads?

If we look further in ch 9, we see the following. Granted, not meaning these locusts, but that is beside the point since we can use this example to maybe explain the purpose of the locusts tormenting the lost. Except they never die during that ordeal, as opposed to verse 20-21 where some are actually killed by these plagues.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Apparently, it might have do with getting the lost to repent, something satan would never want the lost to do but God would.

FYI I believe that these locus aren't fallen demons but the Roman army (see Joel chapter 2)

 

[Davidpt]

FYI I believe that these locus aren't fallen demons but the Roman army (see Joel chapter 2)

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Is that what history recorded at the time? That verse has perplexed me for ages now. But with AI and it rapidly advancing I am then thinking this verse is maybe meaning in the literal sense, that the one's being tormented are literally unable to die. As in AI provided these with a form of immortality. Though, of course, prior to AI, would be pure fiction, but who knows, maybe it's not fiction at all any more. Granted, just speculating here. But before AI I would have never entertained that this verse is maybe meaning in the literal sense. And it's not like there is not chatter in the AI community linking AI with a form of immortality in the future.

One thing that is clear, in light of verse 6, your Romans theory makes zero sense of the text no matter what sense one takes the text in question in.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Is that what history recorded at the time? That verse has perplexed me for ages now.

It has perplexed many people since it was written. Taken literally, it gives the impression that people would somehow want to kill themselves, but wouldn't be able to do so. Of course, the verse follows a symbolic description of locusts tormenting people, but not killing them, for 5 months. Since the preceding verses are all clearly symbolic, I don't think it makes much sense to interpret the verse in a wooden literal fashion.

Many people have wanted to die over the years because of suffering they are going through, but a vast majority of them couldn't bring themselves to actually kill themselves. So, I think this could be a case of hyperbole in relation to most people wanting to die, but not being able to actually kill themselves rather than it saying that literally no unbelievers are able to kill themselves during that time.

I just thought of one thing that may give some insight to this.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [d]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

I'm not saying this passage is parallel to Revelation 9:6, but I just wanted to make a point using this passage. See here how it describes people as wanting to die rather than face the wrath of the Lamb? Rather than just killing themselves, they are wanting the mountains and rocks to fall on them. So, they can't kill themselves and are just hoping they could somehow die some other way rather than face Christ's wrath. This shows how people can want to die, but are not able to kill themselves, which is true of a vast majority who want to die.