Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

[quietthinker]

I observe in nearly all posts that the term "rapture" is used incorrectly.

It will not be just a "rapture" event, but a "resurrection/rapture" event.

The event involves resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of the living in Christ.

So please, everyone, start using the term "resurrection/rapture event", not just rapture by itself.

The use of certain language to convey a narrative to deflect, deceive or misrepresent is a old as Eve's encounter with the Serpent in Eden.
This principle is beautifully highlighted in this presentation of 'Dissection of Deception'

 

[Douggg]

That's what the bible teaches.

The saved dead are in heaven not in Earthly graves.

It is the souls of the saved dead that are in heaven - not their bodies.

There bodies are in graves on the Earth.

 

[CrowCross]

That's what the bible teaches.




The saved dead are in heaven not in Earthly graves.

Your spirit goes to heaven and your body is put into a grave.

 

[Davidpt]

Your spirit goes to heaven and your body is put into a grave.

This should mean you agree no humans are presently bodily in heaven. So how do Preteribbers assume they enter heaven? If Pretrib is true, they would obviously be in a bodily state. But not in immortal bodies unless the last trump in 1 Corithians 15 precede the beginning of great tribulation though. Otherwise, that makes Pretribbers still possessing mortal bodies in the meantime. And it makes sense exactly how? Humans in mortal bodies literally dwelling in heaven. That is profoundly absurd. Probably one of the most absurd things one has ever heard of, humans in mortal bodies entering and dwelling in heaven. But I guess the more absurd something is, the more likely it is to be true, per the way some reason through things like this.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is undeniably 100% crystal clear that no human can put on bodily immortality before the last trump sounds first. And it should equally undeniably be 100% crystal clear that no human can enter and dwell in heaven in a mortal body. When humans die their bodies are stil in a mortal condition and are left behind in their grave. And that you agree with this. Then turn right around and contradict this by claiming Pretribbers go to heaven in mortal bodies before great tribulation begins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This should mean you agree no humans are presently bodily in heaven. So how do Preteribbers assume they enter heaven? If Pretrib is true, they would obviously be in a bodily state. But not in immortal bodies unless the last trump in 1 Corithians 15 precede the beginning of great tribulation though. Otherwise, that makes Pretribbers still possessing mortal bodies in the meantime. And it makes sense exactly how? Humans in mortal bodies literally dwelling in heaven. That is profoundly absurd. Probably one of the most absurd things one has ever heard of, humans in mortal bodies entering and dwelling in heaven But I guess the more absurd something is, the more likely it is to be true, per the way some reason through things like this.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is undeniably 100% crystal clear that no human can put on bodily immortality before the last trump sounds first.

Pre-tribs believe that passage you quoted refers to what will happen when the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs. So, they see that passage and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 as occurring at the same time. But, then the question becomes...when do the so-called "trib saints" who get saved during the tribulation along with anyone who would become saved during the thousand years be changed into having bodily immortality? Is the Bible silent about that? I don't believe so. I believe all believers from all-time will be changed to put on bodily immortality at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

 

[Davidpt]

Pre-tribs believe that passage you quoted refers to what will happen when the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs. So, they see that passage and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 as occurring at the same time. But, then the question becomes...when do the so-called "trib saints" who get saved during the tribulation along with anyone who would become saved during the thousand years be changed into having bodily immortality? Is the Bible silent about that? I don't believe so. I believe all believers from all-time will be changed to put on bodily immortality at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

The following never came to mind per that last post but came to mind now. Maybe Pretribbers can argue that humans, such as Enoch and Elijiah entered heaven in mortal bodies and are dwelling in heaven in mortal bodies? Therefore, what is the issue, they ask?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The following never came to mind per that last post but came to mind now. Maybe Pretribbers can argue that humans, such as Enoch and Elijiah entered heaven in mortal bodies and are dwelling in heaven in mortal bodies? Therefore, what is the issue, they ask?

No one can argue that because Jesus said this...

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus would not have said this if Enoch and Elijah had entered heaven. Jesus was talking about the third heaven/paradise there. Enoch and Elijah did not go there. So, they must have been just taken up into the sky (first heaven) and later died.

The following indicates that Enoch later died. Look at verse 5 and then verse 13 in particular.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Verse 13 indicates that all of those with faith who were previously mentioned, which included Enoch, all died. So, he must have been taken away somewhere temporarily to avoid dying and then was placed somewhere else on earth and then he later died. Same with Elijah.

 

[IndianaRob]

No one can argue that because Jesus said this...

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus would not have said this if Enoch and Elijah had entered heaven. Jesus was talking about the third heaven/paradise there. Enoch and Elijah did not go there. So, they must have been just taken up into the sky (first heaven) and later died.

The following indicates that Enoch later died. Look at verse 5 and then verse 13 in particular.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Verse 13 indicates that all of those with faith who were previously mentioned, which included Enoch, all died. So, he must have been taken away somewhere temporarily to avoid dying and then was placed somewhere else on earth and then he later died. Same with Elijah.

The obvious answer is that God took Enoch out of his earthly body before that earthly body died. There's no way an earthly body can die without the soul occupying it experiencing that death. So for Enoch to "not see death," God had to take him out of the body first, then the body died.

It’s the way all believers leave this world. Death is for the children of this world, not the children of God.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[ewq1938]

It is the souls of the saved dead that are in heaven - not their bodies

There bodies are in graves on the Earth.

Yes and also true is that the new body is in heaven now and that is what the souls of the dead will receive at the resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

Your spirit goes to heaven and your body is put into a grave.

Yes. This is common knowledge.

 

[Douggg]

This should mean you agree no humans are presently bodily in heaven. So how do Preteribbers assume they enter heaven?

The resurrection/rapture event has not taken place yet. When it does, the ressurected/raptured saints will be taken to heaven with Jesus in their glorified everlasting eternal life bodies.

 

[Douggg]

Yes and also true is that the new body is in heaven now and that is what the souls of the dead will receive at the resurrection.

The resurrection/rapture event has not taken place yet. So the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven have not received their new body yet.

When the time comes for the resurrection/rapture event, Jesus will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him from heaven.

 

[IndianaRob]

The resurrection/rapture event has not taken place yet. So the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven have not received their new body yet.

When the time comes for the resurrection/rapture event, Jesus will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him from heaven.

View attachment 86577

Your position has “those that are alive and remaining” preventing the dead in Christ from getting their new bodies.

 

[Davidpt]

When it does, the ressurected/raptured saints will be taken to heaven with Jesus in their glorified everlasting eternal life bodies.

Explain exactly how anyone receives a glorified body unless the last trump sounds first? Is it your position that the last trump sounds prior to great tribulation rather than post great tribulation?

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Make it crystal clear to everyone reading this thread as to what your view of this passage is. When is this meaning per your view? Before great tribulation or after great tribulation? And this passage is clearly relevant, so let's not pretend it isn't. No way in a million years can anyone in our day and age receive a glorified body unless the last trumpet sounds first.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Explain exactly how anyone receives a glorified body unless the last trump sounds first? Is it your position that the last trump sounds prior to great tribulation rather than post great tribulation?

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Make it crystal clear to everyone reading this thread as to what your view of this passage is. When is this meaning per your view? Before great tribulation or after great tribulation? And this passage is clearly relevant, so let's not pretend it isn't. No way in a million years can anyone in our day and age receive a glorified body unless the last trumpet sounds first.

What is giving you the impression that he believes anyone will be changed to put on bodily immortality before the last trumpet sounds? I already told you that he believes the rapture occurs at the last trumpet and that he believes 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 happens at the same time as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. That's what all pre-tribs believe. I thought you used to be pre-trib? Didn't you believe that the last trumpet sounded at the time of the supposed pre-trib rapture when you were pre-trib?

 

[Davidpt]

What is giving you the impression that he believes anyone will be changed to put on bodily immortality before the last trumpet sounds? I already told you that he believes the rapture occurs at the last trumpet and that he believes 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 happens at the same time as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. That's what all pre-tribs believe. I thought you used to be pre-trib? Didn't you believe that the last trumpet sounded at the time of the supposed pre-trib rapture when you were pre-trib?

I guess it went over my head when you said that, or maybe I haven't even read the post yet. Have other things on my mind lately, such s a possible rabid stray cat my wife has been feeding forever. It's a long story so would rather not get into that unless someone has experience with possible rabid animals and early symptoms and can perhaps DM me and give me their opinion. That aside.

When I was Pretrib for decades even, I was Pretrib because the churches I attended at the time held pretrib views. But this was before the time of the internet. In those days I was pretty much naive about everything, therefore, didn't question things. I pretty much accepted, that if the churches I was attending at the time believe in a Pretrib rapture, it must be Biblical then. Plus back in those days there weren't any electronic Bibles yet. Or if there was, I wasn't aware of them.

Even if they connected the last trump with a Pretrib rapture, it likely went over my head at the time. Unlike now, I did not seek proof for anything. If they said it and taught it, I believed it, accepted it and didn't question it. Thus the reason I am the way I am now. I pretty much quit trusting a long time ago for anyone to do my thinking for me.

 

[Douggg]

Your position has “those that are alive and remaining” preventing the dead in Christ from getting their new bodies.

I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[Douggg]

Explain exactly how anyone receives a glorified body unless the last trump sounds first? Is it your position that the last trump sounds prior to great tribulation rather than post great tribulation?

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Make it crystal clear to everyone reading this thread as to what your view of this passage is. When is this meaning per your view? Before great tribulation or after great tribulation? And this passage is clearly relevant, so let's not pretend it isn't. No way in a million years can anyone in our day and age receive a glorified body unless the last trumpet sounds first.

The last trumpet shall be Jesus's voice as He circles the earth shouting "Come forth !!! Come up hither !!!" (see my illustration below). Before the great tribulation begins.

In 1Thessalonians 4:16, Jesus's voice is described as that of the archangel, the highest messenger of God, and that of being the trump of God.

1Thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

to the dead in Christ, like when Jesus called Lazarus out from the grave...
John 11: 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

to the living in Christ, like when Jesus called John up to heaven...
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

[Truth7t7]

Pre-tribs believe that passage you quoted refers to what will happen when the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs. So, they see that passage and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 as occurring at the same time. But, then the question becomes...when do the so-called "trib saints" who get saved during the tribulation along with anyone who would become saved during the thousand years be changed into having bodily immortality? Is the Bible silent about that? I don't believe so. I believe all believers from all-time will be changed to put on bodily immortality at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

The pre-trib crowd falsely teaches of multiple times ofresurrections, I think douggg has 4 future resurrection

I also believe God's words in John 5:28-29 and how all in the Graves will come forth, John 6:39-40 the believer will be resurrected on the last day at the Lords second coming, and not anytime before it

 

[Douggg]

I think douggg has 4 future resurrection

correct.
1. the resurrection/rapture event- 1Thessalonians4:14-18
2. the resurrection of the two witnesses - Revelation 11:11-12
3. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints - Revelation 20:4
4. the resurrection of the rest of the dead - Revelation 20:13