Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

[quietthinker]

I observe in nearly all posts that the term "rapture" is used incorrectly.

It will not be just a "rapture" event, but a "resurrection/rapture" event.

The event involves resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of the living in Christ.

So please, everyone, start using the term "resurrection/rapture event", not just rapture by itself.

The use of certain language to convey a narrative to deflect, deceive or misrepresent is a old as Eve's encounter with the Serpent in Eden.
This principle is beautifully highlighted in this presentation of 'Dissection of Deception'

 

[Douggg]

That's what the bible teaches.

The saved dead are in heaven not in Earthly graves.

It is the souls of the saved dead that are in heaven - not their bodies.

There bodies are in graves on the Earth.

 

[CrowCross]

That's what the bible teaches.




The saved dead are in heaven not in Earthly graves.

Your spirit goes to heaven and your body is put into a grave.

 

[Davidpt]

Your spirit goes to heaven and your body is put into a grave.

This should mean you agree no humans are presently bodily in heaven. So how do Preteribbers assume they enter heaven? If Pretrib is true, they would obviously be in a bodily state. But not in immortal bodies unless the last trump in 1 Corithians 15 precede the beginning of great tribulation though. Otherwise, that makes Pretribbers still possessing mortal bodies in the meantime. And it makes sense exactly how? Humans in mortal bodies literally dwelling in heaven. That is profoundly absurd. Probably one of the most absurd things one has ever heard of, humans in mortal bodies entering and dwelling in heaven. But I guess the more absurd something is, the more likely it is to be true, per the way some reason through things like this.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is undeniably 100% crystal clear that no human can put on bodily immortality before the last trump sounds first. And it should equally undeniably be 100% crystal clear that no human can enter and dwell in heaven in a mortal body. When humans die their bodies are stil in a mortal condition and are left behind in their grave. And that you agree with this. Then turn right around and contradict this by claiming Pretribbers go to heaven in mortal bodies before great tribulation begins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This should mean you agree no humans are presently bodily in heaven. So how do Preteribbers assume they enter heaven? If Pretrib is true, they would obviously be in a bodily state. But not in immortal bodies unless the last trump in 1 Corithians 15 precede the beginning of great tribulation though. Otherwise, that makes Pretribbers still possessing mortal bodies in the meantime. And it makes sense exactly how? Humans in mortal bodies literally dwelling in heaven. That is profoundly absurd. Probably one of the most absurd things one has ever heard of, humans in mortal bodies entering and dwelling in heaven But I guess the more absurd something is, the more likely it is to be true, per the way some reason through things like this.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is undeniably 100% crystal clear that no human can put on bodily immortality before the last trump sounds first.

Pre-tribs believe that passage you quoted refers to what will happen when the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs. So, they see that passage and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 as occurring at the same time. But, then the question becomes...when do the so-called "trib saints" who get saved during the tribulation along with anyone who would become saved during the thousand years be changed into having bodily immortality? Is the Bible silent about that? I don't believe so. I believe all believers from all-time will be changed to put on bodily immortality at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

 

[Davidpt]

Pre-tribs believe that passage you quoted refers to what will happen when the supposed pre-trib rapture occurs. So, they see that passage and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 as occurring at the same time. But, then the question becomes...when do the so-called "trib saints" who get saved during the tribulation along with anyone who would become saved during the thousand years be changed into having bodily immortality? Is the Bible silent about that? I don't believe so. I believe all believers from all-time will be changed to put on bodily immortality at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

The following never came to mind per that last post but came to mind now. Maybe Pretribbers can argue that humans, such as Enoch and Elijiah entered heaven in mortal bodies and are dwelling in heaven in mortal bodies? Therefore, what is the issue, they ask?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The following never came to mind per that last post but came to mind now. Maybe Pretribbers can argue that humans, such as Enoch and Elijiah entered heaven in mortal bodies and are dwelling in heaven in mortal bodies? Therefore, what is the issue, they ask?

No one can argue that because Jesus said this...

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus would not have said this if Enoch and Elijah had entered heaven. Jesus was talking about the third heaven/paradise there. Enoch and Elijah did not go there. So, they must have been just taken up into the sky (first heaven) and later died.

The following indicates that Enoch later died. Look at verse 5 and then verse 13 in particular.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Verse 13 indicates that all of those with faith who were previously mentioned, which included Enoch, all died. So, he must have been taken away somewhere temporarily to avoid dying and then was placed somewhere else on earth and then he later died. Same with Elijah.

 

[IndianaRob]

No one can argue that because Jesus said this...

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Jesus would not have said this if Enoch and Elijah had entered heaven. Jesus was talking about the third heaven/paradise there. Enoch and Elijah did not go there. So, they must have been just taken up into the sky (first heaven) and later died.

The following indicates that Enoch later died. Look at verse 5 and then verse 13 in particular.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Verse 13 indicates that all of those with faith who were previously mentioned, which included Enoch, all died. So, he must have been taken away somewhere temporarily to avoid dying and then was placed somewhere else on earth and then he later died. Same with Elijah.

The obvious answer is that God took Enoch out of his earthly body before that earthly body died. There's no way an earthly body can die without the soul occupying it experiencing that death. So for Enoch to "not see death," God had to take him out of the body first, then the body died.

It’s the way all believers leave this world. Death is for the children of this world, not the children of God.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?