(The Beast) & (The Two Witnesses) Will Be On This Earth Together For 3.5 Years (Then Cometh The End)

[Douggg]

Protip: transgression is the abomination…you’re under delusion it appears and just making things up as you go. Sorta like the rest of dispensationalists who think there are two covenants or that works ever saved.

The transgression of desolation is found in Daniel 8:13.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

[Douggg]

The word "Woe" in Revelation 12:12 below has absolutely nothing to do with the 3 woes seen below in Revelation 8:13 that's the topic of the discussion and you know this "Diversion"

It is not just "Woe" in Revelation 12:12, but "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth". The same direct phrase used in Revelation 8:13.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

 

[Truth7t7]

The transgression of desolation is found in Daniel 8:13.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Witness clearly explained that the (Transgression Of Desolation) and (The Abomination Of Desolation) are the very same event and he's "100% Correct" Daniel Chapter 8 & 9 are parallel readings of the same event

 

[Truth7t7]

It is not just "Woe" in Revelation 12:12, but "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth". The same direct phrase used in Revelation 8:13.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Once again the discussion surrounds the 3 woes of Revelation 8:13 and they are fulfilled surrounding the text below, simple, clear, easy to understand

(The Three Woes)

Revelation 8:13KJV
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:12KJV
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14KJV
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

[Douggg]

Witness clearly explained that the (Transgression Of Desolation) and (The Abomination Of Desolation) are the very same event and he's "100% Correct" Daniel Chapter 8 & 9 are parallel readings of the same event

No, the Transgression of Desolation is a sit in the temple act by the Antichrist claiming to have achieved God-hood as described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The Abomination of Desolation comes later. It will a be a statue image of the Antichrist after he has become the beast of Revelation 13.

The false prophet has people make a statue image of the beast.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

That Abomination of Desolation statue image will be indwelt by Satan when Satan is cast down to earth.

People who worship that statue image will unknowingly actually be worshiping Satan.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
The 7-year clock for Jesus's return starts with the arrival of a charismatic leader (antichrist), who brokers a peace agreement between Israel and Middle-Eastern countries.

At the midpoint of the 7 years he takes his seat in the temple, as though he were God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

At the end of the seven years a battle ensues between antichrist and hostile Middle-Eastern countries, at the plain of Megiddo (battle of Armageddon). Before they begin Jesus appears in the sky with his army of angels (Revelation 19:11-21). Crunch time.

 

[David in NJ]

IMO:
There are two comings of Jesus.

The 7-year clock of Jesus's return starts at the arrival of a charismatic leader (antichrist) who brokers a peace agreement between Israel and Middle Eastern countries. He then oversees rebuilding of the Jewish temple.

At the midpoint of the 7 years he takes his seat in the temple, as though he were God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

At the end of the seven years a battle ensues between antichrist and hostile Middle-Eastern countries, at the plain of Megiddo (Armageddon). Before they begin Jesus appears in the sky with his army of angels (Revelation 19:11-21). Crunch time!

IMO does not not hold Living Water

The Words of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the Living Water of Truth.

JESUS Said His Second Coming is One and Done for all the Saints = Gospel

 

[Douggg]

The 7-year clock of Jesus's return starts at the arrival of a charismatic leader (antichrist) who brokers a peace agreement between Israel and Middle Eastern countries. He then oversees rebuilding of the Jewish temple.

Well, you are right about an action by the Antichrist beginning the 7 years.

But it will not be by a peace agreement, but by a speech he gives on the temple mount about God giving the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever. Moses made that required speech in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel to be done on a 7 year cycle.

The Jews of Judaism will mistakenly think the Antichrist person is their long awaited King of Israel messiah. Well, until he commits the Transgression of Desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4. When he does that act, the Jews will disown him as their King of Israel. Ending his Antichrist phase.

 

[WitnessX]

I Agree that scripture doesn't name the future (Two Witnesses) and I agree 100% with your explanation of John the Baptist coming in the Spirit and power of Elijah fulfilling scripture

Scripture clearly teaches that the (Two Witnesses) will be (Prophets) that have (Physical Bodies That Die) anything more is suggestive guesswork

Just a note, the False Prophet will call fire from heaven before The Beast, with this immitating a false representation of Elijah before the world?

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:9-10KJV
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Indeed, the two prophets physically die. Given that, I don’t see a translated Moses, Elijah, or Enoch. In the Spirit of sure…because it’s really the Holy Spirit who gave them the powers/gifts in the first place.

Similar to how dispensationalists say/claim the church is the restrainer. Which is nonsense of course because the Holy Spirit doesn’t need an indwelled believer to restrain or accomplish Gods will.

Several examples of this in the Word such as 1 Samuel 14 where God causes entire enemy armies to attack each other through divine confusion, not because a believer had anything to do with it.

I do believe that the AC and False prophet will mimic the first coming….as the AC is heralded by only one prophet…the false one. Just like Jesus was heralded by one prophet at His first advent, John the Baptist.

First coming= one witness
Second coming=two witnesses

All matters established by two or more witnesses as found in Deuteronomy 19:15, 2 Corinthians 13:1 and Matthew 18:16.

This would make logical sense seeing that they rejected the first coming outright and their (Judaisms) claim of needing a physical temple to bring about their Moshiachs arrival.

They are looking for two people….Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David…(The Antichrist and False Prophet) who of course come in their own name and will be accepted.

John 5:43 (KJV) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The final act of spiritual adultery and clear disobedience of the first commandment. This will then provoke the demand of allegiance and people must choose sides, either to the false Christ and be damned to the lake of fire or Jesus Christ, the True Messiah, who they don’t believe is divine nor the Son of God come in the flesh…so by default they are antichrist according to 1 John 4:2-3.

1 John 4:2-3 (KJV) 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

We also know that if you don’t have the Son, you don’t have the Father.

1 John 2:23 (KJV) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

This is just my opinion of what I know of their Babylonian Talmud, Gemara, Sedarim, Mishna, Halakha say, and of course what scripture lays out. It all makes logical sense, especially given the fact that end times Jerusalem is in fact Babylon the great city, Mother of Harlots, and the Word lays this out in a 50,000 ft view.

We know Babylon is destroyed by Gods Judgment and we know Jerusalem is replaced with the Bride…New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:2 (AMP) And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband;

Jerusalem was supposed to be the bride all along but they wouldn’t stop their whoredom. The book of Hosea is one giant metaphor/allegory with Hosea being God and Gomer being Jerusalem.

Time is short, choose this day whom thou shall serve. Amen, and Glory to the Great I AM.

 

[William Barton]

Truth717 noted:
Dispensationalism

Sure:
1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome, 7.Millennial Kingdom. That is a "dispensary" of nations.

In my view:
o. "Time no longer" (Revelation 10:6) is an idiom meaning "no further delay."

o. Time is not an entity, rather time is the interval in which action occurs.

o. "Last trump" (1Corinthisns 15:52) does not equate to the end of the world, rather the end of the world occurs in Revelation chapters 21, 22 (new heavens and earth).

Trumpets were used as signals in battles. In this case the battle will be Jesus and his angels versus Satan and his angels at the *last trump* (Revelation 29:11-21).

 

[Douggg]

They are looking for two people….Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David…(The Antichrist and False Prophet) who of course come in their own name and will be accepted.

The Jews of Judaism are looking for Elijah the prophet to anoint their King of Israel messiah.

One of the actions that Elijah the prophet did in his battle with the prophets of baal was to call fire down from heaven.

Now let's look at what the false prophet does in Revelation 13:

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

So the Jews will initially think that the false prophet is the embodiment of Elijah, and it will be the false prophet who anoints the Antichrist person the King of Israel messiah.

 

[Truth7t7]

o. "Last trump" (1Corinthisns 15:52) does not equate to the end of the world, rather the end of the world occurs in Revelation chapters 21, 22 (new heavens and earth).

Your claim is 100% "False"

The scripture below shows that at (The Last Trump) the resurrection takes place, this is the second coming (Then Cometh The End) at this time mortal becomes immortal as the last enemy death is destroyed (The End Of This Mortal World)

Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand, "Before Your Eyes"

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Davy]

Reformed Theology falsely teaches this existing earth will be (Renewed-Regenerated) a false teaching

This earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire down to its very elements at his coming, it will be a completely (New Creation) as God's word clearly teaches below

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

(I Create) not (I Renew/Regenerate)

The very same Hebrew word used (Bara) in Isaiah 65:17 (Create) is seen used in Genesis 1:1 (Created) below

(Strongs, Absolutely To Create)

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Genesis 1:1KJV
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Strong’s Definitions: בָּרָא bârâʼ, baw-raw'; a primitive root;

(absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):—choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

We see you failed to take @Davidpt 's advice and look up the meaning of the Greek word used for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10. The Greek word doesn't mean earth material matter like how you are trying to apply it.

 

[Davy]

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)​

Sound The Alarm!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium, this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

....

You are more greatly deceived than I thought you were.

The Scriptures you quote from Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are for the End of THIS PRESENT world PRIOR to Jesus' future 2nd coming. Jesus was warning us about the coming false-Messiah in Jerusalem for the End of this present world just before His actual return.

 

[Davy]

Have you considered that the rapture of the 2 witnesses/144,000 is entirely separate from the time of Jesus' return?

That idea is from men behind the false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Per Revelation 11, God's "two witnesses" arise immediately just prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet which is when Jesus comes. All these below verses happen within the same time frame very quickly with each other...

Rev 11:11-15
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV

Even though that third woe and sounding of the 7th Trumpet is written right after the ending of the second woe, all those events above in 'red' happen closely together.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly ADDS... a seven year period (tribulation) in between the "two witnesses" rising at the end of the 2nd Woe, and Jesus' return on the start of the 3rd Woe. Nothing like that is written in the above Revelation 11 Scripture. Also, those events written that go with that 3rd Woe from Revelation 11:15-19 are linked to that great earthquake and destruction in Jerusalem at the ending of the 2nd Woe when the "two witnesses" arise.

Here's the order of those events in outline fashion:

1. God's "two witnesses" arise and are caught up to Heaven at the ending of the 2nd Woe.
2. In that same hour, that great earthquake happens, with Jesus' feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, bringing all His elect there with Him, to represent the 3rd final Woe upon the earth (Jesus' return upon the Mount of Olives is what causes the great earthquake per Zechariah 14, which also says He brings all His elect there with Him).

This is entirely new information not found in other texts. No one else is raptured with them. They go up into the clouds by themselves. They are seen on heavenly Mt Zion without other people. Jesus does not come to meet them in the air.

I don't find a rapture in 1 Cor 15. I find a change from mortal to immortal at the time of the last trumpet. I believe the last trumpet is the last time God's voice will be heard in this present creation. This will be the time when by his voice, the elements are dissolved in fire. IMO 1 Cor 15 occurs 1,000 years after the rapture and right before a new heaven and earth are created.

In regard to mocking, I was using your words so that you might learn not to use them. I guess that didn't work. At least try to understand a point of view that is different from your own before mocking it.

 

[Truth7t7]

We see you failed to take @Davidpt 's advice and look up the meaning of the Greek word used for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10. The Greek word doesn't mean earth material matter like how you are trying to apply it.

Oh Sure, I'm A Believer, Lol!

 

[Truth7t7]

You are more greatly deceived than I thought you were.

Don't be so hard on yourself

 

[Davy]

IMO:
o. "End-times" = seven years, where year =360 days.
o. First 3.5 years = tribulation.
o. Then the rapture.
o. Final 3.5 years = great tribulation.

Man's opinion from the false Pre-trib Rapture school, not The Bible.

The first 1260 day period is about the restoration of the Jew's temple and old covenant sacrificial worship. The latter 1260 day period is the "great tribulation", which begins at the middle of the seven years because the Antichrist will end the Jew's sacrifices and worship and instead place the "abomination of desolation" at the new temple and demand all worship him as God. Christ's Church won't be gathered by Lord Jesus until AFTER... all that.

 

[William Barton]

Nothing in scripture says the first seal is the antichrist. Not single passage is a proof text for that interpretation. That’s dispensationalist slop. Your charts are useless and you have no understanding. You are jamming square pegs into round holes. You should consider spending time in the word and asking for understanding rather than your 1 billion charts and graphs. I say that out of love.

The AC doesn’t come on the scene until the 5th seal, when the AOD takes place (Matt 24:15) when he stands in the false temple and calls himself God (2 Thess 2:3-4). Then he makes war against the saints who don’t accept him as such. This starts the 3.5 year Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21).

The four horseman are the same as the four chariots in Zechariah, they can stir up (Dan 7:2) or quiet the nations (Zech 1:8-11), among other things, according to Gods will. They are the first four seals and the beginning of sorrows/birth pangs.

Zechariah 6:1-3 (KJV) 1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains [were] mountains of brass. 2 In the first chariot [were] red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; 3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

Zechariah 6:4-5 (KJV) 4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What [are] these, my lord? 5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These [are] the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

The same four winds/spirits in Daniel 7, and other passages, who stir up the nations:

Daniel 7:2 (KJV) Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Daniel 7:2 (AMP) Daniel said, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea (the nations).

Amen

Judgments are illustrated by trumpets, seals, bowls.
o seven trumpets announce a scroll to be read and executed.
o seven wax seals on the rolled-up scroll are removed, scroll is read.
o seven bowls (judgments, hot oil, method of torture) are executed.

God will not be patient forever.

 

[William Barton]

The resurrection/rapture is at His coming just as 1Cor 15:23 states:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 (KJV) 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The Mystery Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15:51 is the same mystery in Rev 10:7.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:7 (KJV) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The last trump is the seventh trump.

Further, Paul explicitly states the dead rise before those whom are alive. He says this TWICE in a span of two sentences in 1 Thess 4:15-16. Which is also the same “coming” in 1 Cor 15:23.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Those whom are alive cannot precede those whom are dead. Period. Scripture is crystal clear.

Pretribulation “rapture” is a lie and easily defeated with scripture.

IMO:
Jesus does not come to earth for the rapture, no need for that. Rather Jesus descends from heaven to a cloud and draws believers to himself, just before the bowl judgments, so that believers may avoid the horrific bowl judgments that follow.

o. "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven to a cloud, and we will be caught up." (1Thessalonians 4:16-18).

o. "And the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle on over the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Revelation 14:14)

Look, look, it's in the BOOK!