Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[Earburner]

If Paul had believed that all ethnic Israel would be saved, he would have been beyond ecstatic.

But he wasn't, and we've seen the distinctions that he draws between the Israel that will be saved and the Israel that will not be saved.

The difference being between faithfulness and obedience, and unfaithfulness and disobedience.

A microcosm of the entirety of humanity.

I sincerely believe that when Christians position themselves into this severe dichotomy for understanding, of how it is that "not all of Israel is Israel" and yet we also read that "all of Israel shall be saved", it is all due to the fact that neither of the christian positions are understanding who the symbolic 144,000 of the nation of Israel truly are.

The 144k has nothing to do with the NC. but rather everything to do with the OC. It is from "under the altar" of the OC. that the 144,000 originate from. Mal. 3:16-18; Rev. 6:9-11.
The 144k of OC Israel were each "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of Promise [white robe] upon the day when Christ was "glorified" in His resurrection.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [permanently] given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified [resurrected].)

In other words, the symbolic number of the 144,000 are from ALL of the tribes of OC. Israel of faith, who lived and died in faith "under the altar" of OC. Israel.

Now, during this present Age of God's Grace, those of Israel who are Born again through faith in Jesus, AFTER His resurrection, they are now OF THE Great Multitude, along with the Gentiles who have also believed.

So yes, in that construct, I believe that all mature Christains who are Born again, do understand that both those of Israel and those of the Gentile nations, who have accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior are indeed the fulfilment of the words: "and so shall all of Israel be saved"
Rom. 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved [meaning both Jew and Gentile now have equal opportunity to enter into God's plan of Salvation]: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And for that, WE ALL DO KNOW that the Deliverer Jesus HAS COME!

 

[CTK]

I sincerely believe that when Christians position themselves into this severe dichotomy for understanding, of how it is that "not all of Israel is Israel" and yet we also read that "all of Israel shall be saved", it is all due to the fact that neither of the christian positions are understanding who the symbolic 144,000 of the nation of Israel truly are.

The 144k has nothing to do with the NC. but rather everything to do with the OC. It is from "under the altar" of the OC. that the 144,000 originate from. Mal. 3:16-18; Rev. 6:9-11.
The 144k of OC Israel were each "sealed" with the Holy Spirit of Promise [white robe] upon the day when Christ was "glorified" in His resurrection.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [permanently] given [to anyone]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified [resurrected].)

In other words, the symbolic number of the 144,000 are from ALL of the tribes of OC. Israel of faith, who lived and died in faith "under the altar" of OC. Israel.

Now, during this present Age if God's Grace, those of Israel who are Born again through faith in Jesus, AFTER His resurrection, they are now OF THE Great Multitude, along with the Gentiles who have also believed.

I am not sure I see Revelation making the connections you are making. Please consider -

Revelation 6 does not identify the souls under the altar as the 144,000. They are described as people who were slain for the word of God and their testimony. Revelation 7 then introduces 144,000 servants who are sealed before judgment is released upon the earth.

Likewise, the white robes given to the martyrs are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit. Revelation normally uses white garments to represent righteousness, purity, victory, or vindication, while the 144,000 are specifically sealed upon their foreheads.

John 7:39 teaches that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified, but it does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were then posthumously sealed and numbered as the 144,000.

The timing in Revelation 7 seems especially important. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds are released and are called “the servants of our God.” That sounds like preparation for a coming work or trial, rather than simply identifying Old Covenant believers who had already died.

So I am not sure the text itself establishes that:

the souls under the altar are the 144,000,​

​

their white robes are the Holy Spirit’s seal,​

​

or the 144,000 consist exclusively of faithful Israelites who died before the cross.​

 

[PinSeeker]

The 144k has nothing to do with the NC. but rather everything to do with the OC. It is from "under the altar" of the OC. that the 144,000 originate from. Mal. 3:16-18; Rev. 6:9-11.

Interesting... Here's how I understand it, Earburner. <smile>

The whole of Revelation is about the time from Christ's life on earth to the time He returns. "After this" is the setting, as John says at that outset of his visions in Revelation 4:1, and this is analogous... synonymous with what the writer of Hebrews says in the first chapter, verse 2, of that epistle... "these last days." So it is absolutely about the New Covenant period...

And it's circular, as all of John's writings are, circling back over the same things, in the case of Revelation describing this period in different ways seven times over.

And just on the subject of the New Covenant, Jesus is the New Covenant, the final and full/complete iteration of God's everlasting covenant... God's promises to Adam and Noah (life), Abraham (descendants/nation and land), Moses (the law), and David (a King), all point to and are finally full revealed in the Person of Christ Jesus.

So Revelation 6:11, "...each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been"... refers to the exact same group Paul is referring to in Romans 11:25-26, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." And then in Revelation 7, what John "sees"... and tells us of are two aspects about God's Israel:

• the first from in verses 1-8, the true Jewish heritage, regardless of ethnicity, of the complete people of God... the fullness of God's Israel
• the second in 9-17, the total number of the complete people of God, which is actually an innumerable multitude ~ of the same group of people... the complete people of God.

Your citation of Malachi 3 is a good one, but I don't think I would say the 144,000 "originated" from there...

...all mature Christains who are Born again, do understand that both those of Israel and those of the Gentile nations, who have accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior are indeed the fulfilment of the words: "and so shall all of Israel be saved"
Rom. 11

Right. Absolutely.

...WE ALL DO KNOW that the Deliverer Jesus HAS COME!

Absolutely. And will return. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

I am not sure I see Revelation making the connections you are making. Please consider -

Revelation 6 does not identify the souls under the altar as the 144,000. They are described as people who were slain for the word of God and their testimony. Revelation 7 then introduces 144,000 servants who are sealed before judgment is released upon the earth.

Likewise, the white robes given to the martyrs are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit. Revelation normally uses white garments to represent righteousness, purity, victory, or vindication, while the 144,000 are specifically sealed upon their foreheads.

John 7:39 teaches that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified, but it does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were then posthumously sealed and numbered as the 144,000.

The timing in Revelation 7 seems especially important. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds are released and are called “the servants of our God.” That sounds like preparation for a coming work or trial, rather than simply identifying Old Covenant believers who had already died.

So I am not sure the text itself establishes that:

the souls under the altar are the 144,000,​

​

their white robes are the Holy Spirit’s seal,​

​

or the 144,000 consist exclusively of faithful Israelites who died before the cross.​

Unfortunately, pharisaical church-ianity has everyone locked up into the belief that all of the book of Revelation is only about the future! Well,.... indeed it is,... but BEGINNING in the day of Jesus' ministry to us, while in his mortal flesh.
Please take a good look at Mat. 27:50-54. There is MUCH going on there, that even church-ianity does not know what to do with it.
Edit: those OC saints in Rev. 6:9-11, who were "under the altar", were under the altar of Remembrance, aka God's book of Remembrance. Mal. 3:16-18.

35 Important Bible Verses About Building Altars (Explained) - Bible Repository

“Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, ‘To your offspring, I will give this land.’ So he built there an altar to the Lord, who had appeared to him.” –

biblerepository.com

Here is the problem that many Christians do not understand:
Israel of faith, while "under the altar" of the OC., never had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor had they partaken in the Gift of Eternal life.

Therefore, though many of those saints of the OC. lived and died, by the "rememberance" of God [Mal. 3:16-18], THEY WERE STILL WAITING for the Promise that was to come. And that He did, in the Day of Jesus death and resurrection. John 7:39. These are the symbolic 144,000 of Israel.

 

[CTK]

Unfortunately, church-ianity has everyone locked up into the belief that all of the book of Revelation is only about the future! Well,.... indeed it is,... but BEGINNING in the day of Jesus' ministry to us, while in his mortal flesh.
Please take a good look at Mat. 27:50-54. There is MUCH going on there, that even church-ianity does not know what to do with it.

Here is the problem that many Christians do not understand:
Israel of faith, while "under the altar" of the OC. never had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor had they partaken in the Gift of Eternal life.
Therefore, though many of those saints of the OC. lived and died, by the "rememberance" of God [Mal. 3:16-18], THEY WERE STILL WAITING for the Promise that was to come. And that He did, in the Day of Jesus death and resurrection. John 7:39. These are the symbolic 144,000 of Israel.

Matthew 27 does not call the raised saints the 144,000.

Malachi 3 does not identify those remembered by God as the souls under the altar.

Revelation 6 does not say the souls under the altar are all faithful Israelites from the Old Covenant.

The white robes are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And John 7:39 does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were later sealed and became the 144,000.

These connections are being added to the texts rather than stated by them - study and stay within scripture.

Revelation 7 presents the 144,000 as servants sealed before coming judgment, and Revelation 14 presents them as firstfruits who follow the Lamb. That sounds more like a specially prepared company for a prophetic purpose than a complete number of Old Covenant believers who had already died.

 

[Earburner]

I am not sure I see Revelation making the connections you are making. Please consider -

Revelation 6 does not identify the souls under the altar as the 144,000. They are described as people who were slain for the word of God and their testimony. Revelation 7 then introduces 144,000 servants who are sealed before judgment is released upon the earth.

Likewise, the white robes given to the martyrs are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit. Revelation normally uses white garments to represent righteousness, purity, victory, or vindication, while the 144,000 are specifically sealed upon their foreheads.

John 7:39 teaches that the Holy Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified, but it does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were then posthumously sealed and numbered as the 144,000.

The timing in Revelation 7 seems especially important. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds are released and are called “the servants of our God.” That sounds like preparation for a coming work or trial, rather than simply identifying Old Covenant believers who had already died.

So I am not sure the text itself establishes that:

the souls under the altar are the 144,000,​

​

their white robes are the Holy Spirit’s seal,​

​

or the 144,000 consist exclusively of faithful Israelites who died before the cross.​

When you unpack what you just wrote, you will discover alot of imposed teaching by church-ianity upon you. For example: Ever since Jesus was "glorified" (John 7:39), no one now, ever receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit AFTER THEIR DEATH. It's always before death. Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[Earburner]

Matthew 27 does not call the raised saints the 144,000.

Malachi 3 does not identify those remembered by God as the souls under the altar.

Revelation 6 does not say the souls under the altar are all faithful Israelites from the Old Covenant.

The white robes are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And John 7:39 does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were later sealed and became the 144,000.

These connections are being added to the texts rather than stated by them - study and stay within scripture.

Revelation 7 presents the 144,000 as servants sealed before coming judgment, and Revelation 14 presents them as firstfruits who follow the Lamb. That sounds more like a specially prepared company for a prophetic purpose than a complete number of Old Covenant believers who had already died.

Are you falling into the same bracket of church-ianity, thinking that the MANY saints that rose out of their graves UPON the moment of JESUS' DEATH on the cross, were NC saints???
KJV Mat. 27:50-55
Again, WHEN was the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit GIVEN???
John 7:39

 

[Earburner]

Matthew 27 does not call the raised saints the 144,000.

Malachi 3 does not identify those remembered by God as the souls under the altar.

Revelation 6 does not say the souls under the altar are all faithful Israelites from the Old Covenant.

The white robes are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And John 7:39 does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were later sealed and became the 144,000.

These connections are being added to the texts rather than stated by them - study and stay within scripture.

Revelation 7 presents the 144,000 as servants sealed before coming judgment, and Revelation 14 presents them as firstfruits who follow the Lamb. That sounds more like a specially prepared company for a prophetic purpose than a complete number of Old Covenant believers who had already died.

Mal. 3:16-18
16 Then they [under the OC] that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
(By the way, God the Father had no other option to remember anyone of the OC. except to remember their names in the "book of remembrance", because the "Book of Life", who is Jesus, had not yet come into the world.)

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day [Age of Grace] when I make up [appoint] my jewels; [lively stones-1 Peter 2:5]
and I will spare [have compassion; save] them, as a man spareth [has compassion; saves] his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye [God/Jesus] return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

By the mind of Christ within us, through the word of God, we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Please read Isa. 55:8-9 and then all of 1 Cor. Ch. 2.

 

[William Barton]

IMO anti-Christ in this context has the sense:
o "anti" = "false"

o "Christ" (Hebrew משיח = Messiah) = "anointed one," i.e. "false Christ, usurping the title Christ." See 1John 2:18, also 1Thessalonians 2:4.

 

[CTK]

IMO anti-Christ, has the sense:
o "anti" = "false"
o "Christ" = Hebrew משיח (Messiah) = "anointed one"

I.e. "usurping the title Christ." See 1John 2:18, also 1Thessalonians 2:4.

Do you agree that anyone can be described as an "anti-christ" - because they preach a different gospel?

But, do you agree there can only be one little horn - that preaches a different gospel, claims the place of God on earth, claims to forgive sin, claims divinity, changes God's laws and commandments, changes the path to salvation, blasphems the Word of God, and so much more?

Quite a difference between one who goes against Christ verses the "ONE" identified in Daniel, 7, 8, 9 and 11 as well as in 2 Thessalonians 2, and certainly in Revelation - don't you think?

 

[William Barton]

IMO:

The Bible says, "The Lord will come suddenly to His temple." (Malachi 3:1)

Antichrist ("little horn") is a charismatic leader who brokers a peace agreement with Israel and other Middle-Eastern countries. He then oversees rebuilding of the Jewish temple, after which he takes his seat in the temple, professing himself to be God (2Thesalonians 2:4).

1John2:18 notes "many antichrists have come," professing themselves to be liaisons between God and men.

"Little horn" arises some time after the ten horns (i.e. ten middle-eastern countries) arise. See (Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12-13).

 

[covenantee]

Matthew 27 does not call the raised saints the 144,000.

Malachi 3 does not identify those remembered by God as the souls under the altar.

Revelation 6 does not say the souls under the altar are all faithful Israelites from the Old Covenant.

The white robes are not identified as the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And John 7:39 does not say that faithful Israelites who had already died were later sealed and became the 144,000.

These connections are being added to the texts rather than stated by them - study and stay within scripture.

Revelation 7 presents the 144,000 as servants sealed before coming judgment, and Revelation 14 presents them as firstfruits who follow the Lamb. That sounds more like a specially prepared company for a prophetic purpose than a complete number of Old Covenant believers who had already died.

Here are the 144,000.
The Church of the Redeemed through all ages from beginning to end.
Immeasurably Grand and Glorious.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.

 

[Truth7t7]

Therefore, though many of those saints of the OC. lived and died, by the "rememberance" of God [Mal. 3:16-18], THEY WERE STILL WAITING for the Promise that was to come. And that He did, in the Day of Jesus death and resurrection. John 7:39. These are the symbolic 144,000 of Israel.

I Strongly Disagree

The 144,000 will be future Jews receiving Jesus and salvation, they will be sealed and added to the Church on earth (The Remnant) Romans Chapter 11

Scripture strongly suggest that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

Luke 21:20-21KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

 

[Earburner]

Do you agree that anyone can be described as an "anti-christ" - because they preach a different gospel?

But, do you agree there can only be one little horn - that preaches a different gospel, claims the place of God on earth, claims to forgive sin, claims divinity, changes God's laws and commandments, changes the path to salvation, blasphems the Word of God, and so much more?

Quite a difference between one who goes against Christ verses the "ONE" identified in Daniel, 7, 8, 9 and 11 as well as in 2 Thessalonians 2, and certainly in Revelation - don't you think?

There is no future "little horn" to come. All of that which was prophesied about him, in the book of Daniel, was fulfilled through the man called Antiochus IV Epiphanes (170-164 BC.).
Please study the historical account of his profane acts against the Jews and their temple in the book of 1 Maccabees, and see also the works of Flavius Josephus, who was an eyewitness to the temple destroyed in 70 AD.

Antiochus Epiphanes—The Bible’s Most Notoriously Forgotten Villain

Many names come to mind when someone mentions the great “villains” of the Bible. Some are foreign powers, like the Pharaoh of the Exodus or King Nebuchadnez

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

 

[Earburner]

I Strongly Disagree

The 144,000 will be future Jews receiving Jesus and salvation, they will be sealed and added to the Church on earth (The Remnant) Romans Chapter 11

Scripture strongly suggest that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

Luke 21:20-21KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

As a born again believer in Jesus, I do not follow Him according to the doctrines of Christian-Zionism.

By the way, ever since Pentecost. "the remnant" of Jewish Israel, through their repentance and faith in Jesus, are being "grafted back" into the KoG every day, by converting to Christ.
Edit:
So yes, "Heavenly Jerusalem above, the (chaste) Mother of us all", is being "safely inhabited". Gal. 4:26; Zech. 14:11.

If Zionists could only know the spiritual truth of Zech. ch.14, that is understood by Amillennial Born again believers, they would stop promoting/pushing the false Zionist agenda of "Jerusalem that now is" of ruling the world/earth for another 1000 years, AFTER Jesus returns in all His Immortal Glory.

Christian Zionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CTK]

There is no future "little horn" to come. All of that which was prophesied about him, in the book of Daniel, was fulfilled through the man called Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
Please study the historical account of his profane acts against the Jews and their temple in the book of 1 Maccabees, and see also the works of Flavius Josephus, who was an eyewitness to the temple destroyed in 70 AD.

Antiochus Epiphanes—The Bible’s Most Notoriously Forgotten Villain

Many names come to mind when someone mentions the great “villains” of the Bible. Some are foreign powers, like the Pharaoh of the Exodus or King Nebuchadnez

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

I really don't want to open a difficult and exhausting topic of the little horn, the prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation - impossible to address even a fraction of them here, but I would like to mention that the Book of Daniel is not a history book by any means.

If you were to study Daniel it is clear the little horn is indeed purposely revealed and described in tremendous details... when he arrives, how he arrives, the timing of his arrival, all of the activities he would do against God, His Kingdom, His laws, His people, and that he would continue until he was destroyed without human hands.

God then continues giving us even more information in chapters 8, 9, 11 and, of course, in the NT that describes this little horn - using different titles, after the cross. The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom which is the kingdom that was in power when Jesus began His ministry. So, the little horn would come out, not only after the cross, but also after the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was slain (Danie 7:11 - 476 AD).

Epiphanies ruled a relatively small section of the post Alexander's kingdom between the demise of the 3rd kingdom of Greece and the beginning of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, but he was a relatively minor general who ruled for only 13 years and was murdered by his own army members. He was indeed noted for hating the Jews and he did defile the temple but ... there is nothing in his story that would elevate him to meet any of the requirements found in Daniel. He simply belongs in our history books - and not even a large figure with any unusual qualities or characteristics.

There were / are hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that lived after the cross that would "preach a different gospel (spirit of anti-christ), but God would purposely identify a specific figure called the "little horn" who would go against Him and His Kingdom that He established at the cross and this "one" would continue until His return when He would destroy him --- there can be only one individual / institution this could possibly describe - if you do not believe me, than believe God - study His Word in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11 and in the NT. Leave your history books in that section of the library... they have no purpose in understanding God's prophetic story.

 

[covenantee]

I really don't want to open a difficult and exhausting topic of the little horn, the prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation - impossible to address even a fraction of them here, but I would like to mention that the Book of Daniel is not a history book by any means.

If you were to study Daniel it is clear the little horn is indeed purposely revealed and described in tremendous details... when he arrives, how he arrives, the timing of his arrival, all of the activities he would do against God, His Kingdom, His laws, His people, and that he would continue until he was destroyed without human hands.

God then continues giving us even more information in chapters 8, 9, 11 and, of course, in the NT that describes this little horn - using different titles, after the cross. The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom which is the kingdom that was in power when Jesus began His ministry. So, the little horn would come out, not only after the cross, but also after the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was slain (Danie 7:11 - 476 AD).

Epiphanies ruled a relatively small section of the post Alexander's kingdom between the demise of the 3rd kingdom of Greece and the beginning of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, but he was a relatively minor general who ruled for only 13 years and was murdered by his own army members. He was indeed noted for hating the Jews and he did defile the temple but ... there is nothing in his story that would elevate him to meet any of the requirements found in Daniel. He simply belongs in our history books - and not even a large figure with any unusual qualities or characteristics.

There were / are hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that lived after the cross that would "preach a different gospel (spirit of anti-christ), but God would purposely identify a specific figure called the "little horn" who would go against Him and His Kingdom that He established at the cross and this "one" would continue until His return when He would destroy him --- there can be only one individual / institution this could possibly describe - if you do not believe me, than believe God - study His Word in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11 and in the NT. Leave your history books in that section of the library... they have no purpose in understanding God's prophetic story.

There is no equal to the centuries of the apostate papacy.

The Reformers whom God raised up got it right.

 

[Earburner]

I really don't want to open a difficult and exhausting topic of the little horn, the prophecies in Daniel and in Revelation - impossible to address even a fraction of them here, but I would like to mention that the Book of Daniel is not a history book by any means.

If you were to study Daniel it is clear the little horn is indeed purposely revealed and described in tremendous details... when he arrives, how he arrives, the timing of his arrival, all of the activities he would do against God, His Kingdom, His laws, His people, and that he would continue until he was destroyed without human hands.

God then continues giving us even more information in chapters 8, 9, 11 and, of course, in the NT that describes this little horn - using different titles, after the cross. The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom which is the kingdom that was in power when Jesus began His ministry. So, the little horn would come out, not only after the cross, but also after the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was slain (Danie 7:11 - 476 AD).

Epiphanies ruled a relatively small section of the post Alexander's kingdom between the demise of the 3rd kingdom of Greece and the beginning of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, but he was a relatively minor general who ruled for only 13 years and was murdered by his own army members. He was indeed noted for hating the Jews and he did defile the temple but ... there is nothing in his story that would elevate him to meet any of the requirements found in Daniel. He simply belongs in our history books - and not even a large figure with any unusual qualities or characteristics.

There were / are hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that lived after the cross that would "preach a different gospel (spirit of anti-christ), but God would purposely identify a specific figure called the "little horn" who would go against Him and His Kingdom that He established at the cross and this "one" would continue until His return when He would destroy him --- there can be only one individual / institution this could possibly describe - if you do not believe me, than believe God - study His Word in Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11 and in the NT. Leave your history books in that section of the library... they have no purpose in understanding God's prophetic story.

"Leave your history books in that section of the library... they have no purpose in understanding God's prophetic story."

Lol....God's Prophetic story is Him foretelling the history of it, before it comes to pass.

Edit:
Does anyone here understand the factors of "type and anti-type" in scripture??

What is an antitype in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is an antitype in the Bible? What are some of the antitypes in the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

For the most part, much of Daniel is now fulfilled and in the past. Even Jesus knew that when he referenced:
Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his [Antiochus'] part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall PLACE the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and [upto] the [time of the] abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety (1290) days.

Have you ever done the math of the 1290 days, that are within the 2300 days (Dan. 8:14- the temple restoration)? It's all there in 1&2 Maccabees.

Doesn't that sound like something of our own plight, about the temple of our bodies, being the temple of God? Don't all of us need "restoration" back to God, so that God's Holy Spirit can permanently dwell within us?

It's not about an abomination to the Jews, but rather its about an abomination towards God.
Do you know of the 7 things that God hates, and are an abomination unto Him? Does "the shedding of innocent blood" ring a bell about someone who was "the Lamb of God". Prov. 6:17.

So then, when Jesus said: "When YE shall see the abomination [that maketh desolate]",.....Who was it that was going to be an abomination unto God?

Q. Do you recall what Jesus cried out, while he was bearing OUR SIN?
A. Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN me?
God the Son, who was of innocent blood, who knew no sin, WAS MADE TO BE SIN for us!! The shedding of Christ's innocent blood for OUR SIN?? That SURELY was an abomination unto God the Father. Prov. 6:17.

Do you even dare to think it?
What temple was desolated/destroyed, and what temple was Resurrected and RESTORED? You do know the answer, but the ways of pharisaical "church-ianity" will fight you to go there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At the very start of what I wrote I had declared that ALL... of those Daniel 9:24 items are completed BY JESUS' 2ND COMING.

So what's your problem?

They were completed long ago. Do you think Jesus has not yet made reconciliation for iniquity?

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

You trying to say all those Daniel 9:24 items have already been fulfilled for the unbelieving Jews in today's nation of Israel? Not even one... of them has been fulfilled in Jerusalem by the unbelieving Jews there, which are in majority there by the way. So quit trying to take up for the UNBELIEVING JEWS in today's JERUSALEM. They will not convert until they SEE Jesus coming in the clouds!

They cannot fulfill the things listed in Daniel 9:24! Only Jesus could and He did long ago! How can unbelieving Jews make reconciliation for iniquity, make an end of sins, finish the transgression, bring in everlasting righteousness and anoint the most holy? Jesus did all of that as only He could do. And I showed the New Testament scriptures to support this, but you don't care.

No one will be converted after Jesus comes down from heaven! You are deceived! Once He comes it will be too late for unbelievers. He will take vengeance on them. Now is the time and today is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2), not tomorrow or some time in the future.

Read this...

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [a]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

In your fantasy land doctrine, the Jews will get a chance to be converted even after Jesus is revealed from heaven. Nonsense! Scripture teaches that when He is revealed from heaven He will be "taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.". But, you say "No, Paul, He will be saving a bunch of unbelieving Jews at that time, not taking vengeance on all unbelievers, including Jewish unbelievers". You think you know better than Paul. You don't. I'll listen to Paul over you any day.

 

[William Barton]

I Strongly Disagree

The 144,000 will be future Jews receiving Jesus and salvation, they will be sealed and added to the Church on earth (The Remnant) Romans Chapter 11

Scripture strongly suggest that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

Luke 21:20-21KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.IMO Luke 10:21 " flee to the mountains" reflects Zechariah 14:5:

IMO:
"...flee to the mountains..." (Luke 10:21) reflects Zechariah 14:5:
"You will flee by my mountain valley..."

Petra time!