In Revelation 20 it involves being cast into somewhere. Should we take it mean that they are cast into God, rather than cast into a place, since God is is a consuming fire?
MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??
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In Revelation 20 it involves being cast into somewhere. Should we take it mean that they are cast into God, rather than cast into a place, since God is is a consuming fire?
You're placing a great deal of weight on the word καί (and) in Revelation 14:9, but you should interpret that verse in light of Revelation 13:16.
Revelation 14:9 says--- If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand...
Notice that even within the same sentence, John distinguishes with 'or' whether the mark is on the forehead or the hand.
Then Revelation 13:16 says----And he causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.
The point is that John's descriptions should be read together. Revelation 13 explains what receiving the mark looks like, and Revelation 14 announces the judgment upon those associated with the beast.
Simply pointing out that καί means 'and' does not, by itself, settle whether worshiping the beast and receiving the mark are two completely independent conditions or whether they are two aspects of the same allegiance. That conclusion has to come from the broader context, not from the conjunction alone.
Your argument is weaker than you seem to think because καί is the normal connective in Greek. It links clauses or actions, but it does not by itself answer questions about whether one action implies the other or whether they always occur separately. That must be determined from the context of Revelation 13 and 14 as a whole, not from the presence of καί alone.
OR or AND no big difference ? :)
1 Cor 15:1-4
To be saved you must :-
believe that Christ died for your sins
AND ? or OR ?
that He was buried
AND ? or OR ?
that He rose from the dead
...
Is it ALL 3 OR just one is enough ?
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It could be that John was shown things in a way for 1st century people to understand what happens but not in a literal or technical sense. Maybe God manifests part of himself as a lake of fire, or maybe there isn't anything that actually looks like a lake or casting people in but the same results take place.
David, I think we're actually in the same boat here, just facing opposite directions.
You think "all" doesn't mean all — it has to be narrowed down to those who end up worshiping the beast.
I think "receive" doesn't mean receive — that it can describe something later reversed through repentance.
Think of it this way: someone can receive the message of a cult — for the sake of argument, call that "receiving a mark." Later they come to the true gospel and walk away from that cult. At that point they are no longer “receiving that mark”.
So it can be true both that they received it and that they did not receive it — just at different points in time. Nothing forces those two statements into contradiction; they're just describing before and after.
>>>>"I think "receive" doesn't mean receive — that it can describe something later reversed through repentance.
Please list the relevant Scripture that has led you to your conclusion.
I will Peter. I was busy yesterday and couldn’t keep up with this thread so I’m behind on replies… im also busy today so I will be slow.
Brother, since there is scriptural reference to the fact that some will not receive the mark, then that verse cannot mean that everyone will be forced to receive the mark. (The word "receive" also indicates one has to be willful when they take the MOB.) What that verse means is that there will be a law (to "cause") that no one will be allowed to buy or sell unless they receive the MOB ...and that law/stipulation will apply to everyone on the earth.
You'll know when that time comes, and it is just around the corner.
Brother, can you find a scriptural example that says anyone will repent of receiving the mark?
There are so many verses in Revelation that say they will not repent.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Marty, I respectfully disagree that the mark is the same scenario as being sealed with the Holy Spirit. "Sealed" and "marked" aren't the same thing.
The mark is a distinguishing mark, which some may say is physical and others would say it's a belief system or personality trait.
You won't find the exact phrase "you can repent from the mark of the beast" anywhere in scripture, but I think it can be inferred from other verses.
More importantly, though — a lot of what people believe about the MOB is made up, not biblical at all, and in my opinion it's part of an end-times psyop.
Im happy to get into the details if you want.
The mark in Rev 13 is physical...it's not about receiving a message.
BTW, how can receiving a message keep one from buying and selling?
Just for the record...
This is from June 21, 2021...back in 2021 they were currently developing...how much more advanced is it now?
Not responding to anyone in particular, here, but here are some of my thoughts on what has been discussed...
We talk about athletes having the mark of greatness, or the mark of a champion, right? Is that because they have certain scars, or tattoos, or even brands... visible imprints of some kind on their skin, that in effect say, "I am great," or "I am a champion"...? No, right? Is it not a quality about them, and thus what they do that enables everyone to see they have these qualities about them? Yes, and so it is with the mark of the beast. It is synonymous with those who, as Paul says:
Grace and peace to all.
We talk about athletes having the mark of greatness, or the mark of a champion, right? Is that because they have certain scars, or tattoos, or even brands... visible imprints of some kind on their skin, that in effect say, "I am great," or "I am a champion"...? No, right? Is it not a quality about them, and thus what they do that enables everyone to see they have these qualities about them? Yes, and so it is with the mark of the beast. It is synonymous with those who, as Paul says:
- exchange the truth for a lie and worship creation rather than the Creator, those who He gives up to their own selfish passions and desires (Romans 1).
- are still slaves of unrighteousness and will remain so (Romans 6).
- are not and will never be among those for whom there is now no condemnation because they are in Christ Jesus, those who have been set free in Christ Jesus by the law of the Spirit of life from the law of sin and death (Romans 8).
- do not receive God's mercy and compassion, who are hardened according to His will (Moses in Exodus 33, Paul in Romans 9).
- are made for dishonorable use and thus vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Romans 9).
- are not chosen in Him before the foundation of the world and thus are not ever made holy and blameless before Him... are not predestined for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, who, even when they hear the word of truth, the gospel ofsalvation, do not believe in Him and thus are not sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it (Ephesians 1).
- live in the passions of their flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and remain children of wrath (Ephesians 2).
Grace and peace to all.
Exactly, and when one understands what the number of the beast means, then it all becomes clear, and the mark becomes clear too. The problem is I have yet to run across another person (on forums) who will accept counting the number as the Bible says — even though the result of counting the number is very telling, people still won't believe it.
I don’t t even attempt to explain it anymore.
Hmmmmm... I'm a little curious. I mean just a bit... <smile>
Grace and peace to you, Rob.
Before i answer the question.....what is a dispensationalist? In your opinion.
Oh boy. Here it is in simplest terms.
666 isn't just 6-6-6
Everyone reads 666 as "six hundred sixty-six" — 6 hundreds, 6 tens, 6 ones. Fine. But that's not the only way to count it.
Count it as 66 tens + 6 ones.
66 = books of the Bible.
6 = number of man.
666 = man added to the Word of God.
No interpretation needed it says what it says.
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