Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[CrowCross]

The restraint must be removed
Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”

From the original post...

The Restrainer is composed of praying christians, Eph 6 spiritual battles and doing Gods will....powered by the Holy Spirit.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, the TRIBULATION saints, as well as faith they have a whole lot of do & don'ts to follow.
eg :-
- Don't take the 'mark'

If you are a christian alive at the time the beast system is completely rolled out and the mark becomes a mandate....I would think that you know the score....You've been through the 4 horsemen, you've been through Rev 8 and seen the destruction of great level mentioned...you've seen the two witnesses...your faith in what scripture says as well as Jesus will be on steroids. So-to-speak.

As a tribulation saint you know what the mark is all about. You will be fully aware of the repercussions of taking the mark.
As a tribulation christian...you won't take the mark.

 

[CrowCross]

So, are you interpreting "antichrist" as being THE Antichrist (implying singular) or are you interpreting "antichrist" as being that spirit of antichrist (implying plural)?

The spirit of antichrist is currently with us and has been with us...THE Antichrist will be a person and only seen after the Restrainer has been removed at the pre-trib rapture of the church.

 

[covenantee]

I have heard that argument several times...there seems to be a problem with it that's been accepted because ...we've always accepted that word "apostasia" to mean that....but has it?

Here's how the word apostasy was translated way back then....

The 4th generation Latin Vulgate used the word DEPARTURE.
The 1384 Wycliffe bible used DEPARTURE
The 1388 Wycliffe Purvey bible used DEPARTURE
The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING


Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.


The changing of the world was a theologically biased based reason rather than a literal direct translation.


The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard seen in modern bibles.

As I said in my previous post....2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.
Because nothing is next to the word apostasy such as faith to depart from....you must look at the text surrounding the word and derive the depart from what from the narrative being spoken about.
The narrative speaks of a gathering which is the rapture of the church AND in the next verse we read about the removal of the Restrainer which is the church working through the Holy Spirit...keeping the antichrist spirit in check via prayers, Eph 6, and doing Gods work. When the gathering of the saints via the rapture happens which removes the christian restraining influence...the antichrist now free to advance is revealed.

Debunked.

 

[CrowCross]

Debunked.

?!?...

 

[Earburner]

The spirit of antichrist is currently with us and has been with us...THE Antichrist will be a person and only seen after the Restrainer has been removed at the pre-trib rapture of the church.

The KJV never uses the word "the" and the word "antichrist" together, so as to imply that the spirit of antichrist is only one singular human person.
However, since there are many antichrists (1 John 2:18), it goes without saying that the cause of antichrists to be plural is "that spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3).

 

[CrowCross]

The KJV never uses the word "the" and the word "antichrist" together, so as to imply that the spirit of antichrist is only one singular human person.
However, since there are many antichrists (1 John 2:18), it goes without saying that the cause of antichrists to be plural is "that spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4:3).

For starters....I don't care if the KJV doesn't say it....as if the KJV rules over all translations.

Secondly the term antichrist is used only 5 times in the bible...all written about by John in his books.

However...antichrist is identified in several different ways.
Here's an example...

KJV 2 Thes 3:7 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In this verse Paul identifies the "man of sin" (antichrist) as a man. A person.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For starters....I don't care if the KJV doesn't say it....as if the KJV rules over all translations.

Secondly the term antichrist is used only 5 times in the bible...all written about by John in his books.

However...antichrist is identified in several different ways.
Here's an example...

KJV 2 Thes 3:7 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In this verse Paul identifies the "man of sin" (antichrist) as a man. A person.

Does the following refer to an individual man of God?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[ewq1938]

As I said in my previous post....2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.

Nope. It's what the word means. No Greek dictionary supports what you claim it means, not one. Citing "departure" does not help your case because it has always been a moral type of departure. You know what an Apostate is, and you know what Apostasy is. Neither means someone traveling from one place to another like the rapture. When a definition must be ignored, that is a clear sign of a bad theology and doctrine. Your choice to keep believing in it if you wish.

 

[ewq1938]

The KJV never uses the word "the" and the word "antichrist" together

That is Grammatically irrelevant. John wrote of antichrist (singular not plural), so in English we use "the" to speak of that certain antichrist.

 

[Earburner]

I have heard that argument several times...there seems to be a problem with it that's been accepted because ...we've always accepted that word "apostasia" to mean that....but has it?

Here's how the word apostasy was translated way back then....

The 4th generation Latin Vulgate used the word DEPARTURE.
The 1384 Wycliffe bible used DEPARTURE
The 1388 Wycliffe Purvey bible used DEPARTURE
The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING


Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.


The changing of the world was a theologically biased based reason rather than a literal direct translation.


The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard seen in modern bibles.

As I said in my previous post....2 Thes 2:3...doesn't mention faith. It's not there. It's been added.
Because nothing is next to the word apostasy such as faith to depart from....you must look at the text surrounding the word and derive the depart from what from the narrative being spoken about.
The narrative speaks of a gathering which is the rapture of the church AND in the next verse we read about the removal of the Restrainer which is the church working through the Holy Spirit...keeping the antichrist spirit in check via prayers, Eph 6, and doing Gods work. When the gathering of the saints via the rapture happens which removes the christian restraining influence...the antichrist now free to advance is revealed.

Among men, the word apostasy has those two understandings.
Whether it means to depart FROM God or to revolt AGAINST God, the outcome is the same. It reflects one's internal self will to not have God to rule over them any longer.

In essence, I perceive that it is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God, that was freely given to a person who had faith in the shed blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin (was sanctified), but has now rejected the gift and has considered it to be an unholy thing. Mat. 12:31

Heb. 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully** after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
** Note: that sin which is never forgiven in this world, or in the world to come.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith HE WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Earburner]

That is Grammatically irrelevant. John wrote of antichrist (singular not plural), so in English we use "the" to speak of that certain antichrist.

John wrote of "that spirit of antichrist" (singular), of which produces "many antichrists" (plural).

 

[CrowCross]

Does the following refer to an individual man of God?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Different context.

You don't have a whole bunch of people going into the rebuilt temple and claiming to b god.

 

[CrowCross]

Among men, the word apostasy has those two understandings.
Whether it means to depart FROM God or to revolt AGAINST God, the outcome is the same. It reflects one's internal self will to not have God to rule over them any longer.

In essence, I perceive that it is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God, that was freely given to a person who had faith in the shed blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin (was sanctified), but has now rejected the gift and has considered it to be an unholy thing. Mat. 12:31

Heb. 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully** after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
** Note: that sin which is never forgiven in this world, or in the world to come.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith HE WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You should compare the verse to the surrounding verse first...it about a gathering...it's about the restrainer being removed.

Once again the verse says NOTHING about a departure from faith. It just isn't there. You seem to find other verses that speak about people losing faith and graft 2 Thes 2:3 into that scripture....and in doing so you lose the context of gathering, departing and removing the restrainer that is clearly there.

 

[PeterAndroz]

If you are a christian alive at the time the beast system is completely rolled out and the mark becomes a mandate....I would think that you know the score....You've been through the 4 horsemen, you've been through Rev 8 and seen the destruction of great level mentioned...you've seen the two witnesses...your faith in what scripture says as well as Jesus will be on steroids. So-to-speak.

As a tribulation saint you know what the mark is all about. You will be fully aware of the repercussions of taking the mark.
As a tribulation christian...you won't take the mark.

Agreed & being a Tribulation saint (of which there currently are none today) you will know that belief alone will not save you and that works/performance/don't do/do will be required.

 

[IndianaRob]

If you are a christian alive at the time the beast system is completely rolled out and the mark becomes a mandate....I would think that you know the score....You've been through the 4 horsemen, you've been through Rev 8 and seen the destruction of great level mentioned...you've seen the two witnesses...your faith in what scripture says as well as Jesus will be on steroids. So-to-speak.

As a tribulation saint you know what the mark is all about. You will be fully aware of the repercussions of taking the mark.
As a tribulation christian...you won't take the mark.

What would you consider completely rolled out? Chip in the body? Digital ID?

 

[PeterAndroz]

What would you consider completely rolled out? Chip in the body? Digital ID?

Yes, after the 2 Thess 2:3 "man of sin" has been revealed to the whole world.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, after the 2 Thess 2:3 "man of sin" has been revealed to the whole world.

I disagree on that one Peter.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I disagree on that one Peter.

Does Scripture teach that the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB happens before the 2 Thess 2:3 "man of sin" is revealed ?
If so, please list the verses so as to help me to understand where I am wrong.

 

[covenantee]

You should compare the verse to the surrounding verse first...it about a gathering...it's about the restrainer being removed.

Once again the verse says NOTHING about a departure from faith. It just isn't there. You seem to find other verses that speak about people losing faith and graft 2 Thes 2:3 into that scripture....and in doing so you lose the context of gathering, departing and removing the restrainer that is clearly there.

From Merriam Webster:​

apostasy​

noun​

apos·ta·sy ə-ˈpä-stə-sē

plural apostasies

Synonyms of apostasy

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection


Nothing about a flyaway airborne spatial departure rapture.
"It just isn't there."