Basically what you’re saying is that the Bible refers to a satanic Kabbalahistic temple as the temple of God.
You don’t see a problem with that?
Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
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You don’t see a problem with that?
IMO:
"Mark of the beast" (on the hand or forehead) is indicated in Revelation 13:16-18, 14:9. It"s an identifier. Someone who does not have it is not allowed to buy or sell.
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Being an identifier is just part of it but it's more.
Just about anyone can fake a mark. I think the mark will be interactive.
IMO:
The Temple is a proxy for the Presence of God, like a home.
1 Kings 8:10-11 depicts the glory of God descending upon the first temple.
The Temple is a proxy for the Presence of God, like a home.
1 Kings 8:10-11 depicts the glory of God descending upon the first temple.
IMO the "mark" is perhaps a microprocessor chip, like the one on your credit card. Welcome to the electronic age.
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Some argue the mark makes you the chip.
Currently we don't know....this is developed (fallen) angel technology.
The mark is said to be on the hand or forehead. I see nothing about angels in the text. Pets sometimes have "microchips" implanted, to identify them if lost.
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I have to push back hard on that one, Crow. That is not God's plan and it's not written in the bible. Your belief system affiliates the temple of God with the kabbalistic temple. The temple of God is the believer, and you can't just say "it's God's written plan" so that it lines up with your belief system.
So you are thinking that 2 Thes. 1:10 doesn't reveal anyone being "caught up into the clouds instantly"? Not so! Please notice the word "WHEN".
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 WHEN he shall COME to be glorified in his saints [dead in Christ], and to be admired in all them that believe [we who are ALIVE and remain] (because our testimony among you was believed) in that DAY.
Because the word "revealed" is used in the above scriptures, you disagree with them because it doesn't specifically line up to your man made doctrine of a so called SECRET Rapture, whereby Jesus SECRETLY returns, and the saints are supposedly snatched away and upto Christ, of which NO ONE ELSE can see!!
I vehemently disagree with anything that promotes a SECRET Rapture.
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"Temple" is a place to commune with God. In that sense I agree that the body is the temple of God. But so is the Jewish temple, that God ordained.
Adam and Eve communed with God, and the Bible indicates that will be restored in the new heavens and earth.
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Rapture!!!
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the voice of an angel, with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (1Thessalinuans 4:16-18)
No noise, no descent of Jesus to the land, just poof, people disappear.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a cry of command, with the voice of an angel, with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (1Thessalinuans 4:16-18)
No noise, no descent of Jesus to the land, just poof, people disappear.
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- Jul 11, 2015
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The day of the Lord Peter writes about is not the second coming. Just look at Rev 19-21 to see that the NHNE does not happen until AFTER the thousand years, not at the second coming.
I was simply telling you where the technology for Satans mark of the beast comes from. Do angels not have technology?
I have no idea why you feel you have to push back hard....Do you think the antichrist after the restrainer is removed is going to go into the christians...the temple of God....and claim himself to be God? How does that make sense?
None of that comes from the Bible — it comes from dispensational tradition. Paul never names the restrainer, never says anything gets removed.
The temple is your bigger problem. You already granted that the man of sin can't be sitting in a believer's body — but that's the only temple of God the New Testament recognizes after the cross.
Here's what happened at the Jews' last attempt at a temple.
I'm stocked up on popcorn for the next one.
Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII
Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.
Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.
The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.
This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.
Perhaps you should listen to the...as you put it..."dispensational tradition".
Eph 6 is how the restrainer works.
The ECFs and apologists reveal the identity of the restrainer. History confirms it.
Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.
John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...
Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.
While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:
Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...
The early church believed that the pagan imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer (i.e. the "letter" or "withholder") which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which, until then, was forestalling the emergence of the antichrist apostate papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", and "that Wicked".
In the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for Paul not to explicitly identify Him. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:
"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."
Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.
The Thessalonians did know whereof Paul was speaking. 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6.
History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.
And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.
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