MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

[Stumpmaster]

IMO, in order to gain more insight into buying and selling, maybe one should determine that in light of Revelation 18, for instance? That ch appears to be involving buying and selling. But in what sense though, I'm not entirely certain. Actually Revelation 13-14, 17-19 have a number of things in common.

Revelation 18:9 ¶And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:


This would be involving the aftermath of judgment. Revelation 13 is not involving the aftermath of anything. It is involving the era of time prior to judgment. The above passage echoes Revelation 14:11---And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever---where that is then echoed in Revelation 19:2-3---for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Take note that Revelation 14:11 involves torment as does Revelation 18:10. Yet some would have us believe that Revelation 14:11 = Revelation 20:11-15. Good luck getting Revelation 18:10, Revelation 19:2-3 logically fitting the scene in Revelation 20:11-15 somehow.

On a side note, Premil has to be the correct view since Rev 14:11 can't be meaning the GWTJ since the GWTJ is after the millennium and that Rev 18-19 is meaning before the millennium, otherwise, you would think Rev 14:11 indeed equals Rev 20:11-15. Except it can't because both Rev 18:10, Rev 19:2-3 already prove it can't.

You want insight @Davidpt . I hope you can handle it , lol

# The beast metaphor pertains to imperial satanic oppression which manifests climactically in the destruction of Babylon.
# The mark of the beast replaces every other method of imperial commerce.
# Commodities are deemed to be the property of the imperial satanic administration, hence the strict enforcement surrounding their acquisition.

 

[ewq1938]

If their understanding is already darkened, then the mark is not the cause of them being lost.

Of course. It comes after any worshipping and is economically related.

The "sword" in Revelation is the Word of God ... it is a two-edged sword because it brings life to believers and death to unbelievers.

He should swing the sword in church more often.

 

[markalan]

Of course. It comes after any worshiping and is economically related.

So then, a literal mark would be irrelevant to whether one is saved or lost.

He should swing the sword in church more often.

Perhaps you are going to the wrong church.

 

[IndianaRob]

In Rev every occurrence of 'mark' & 'beast' together the Greek word for 'mark' is charagma

View attachment 88108
For people in the MOTB time, unless there is a mark that can be seen with their eyes on the head or hand of the person how will they now whether that person has the MOTB ?

We see that differently. I see the MOB as ongoing but you see it as future.

 

[IndianaRob]

I believe BOTH spiritual and physical

In Deuteronomy which you quoted, God commanded a physical mark/binding that represented the spiritual Way to think & act.

In Revelation we have the same = a physical mark that represents Satans kingdom on earth = "for a short time"

God's words/Holy Scriptures do "mesh perfectly together"

SHOCKER = there are contradictions in the Scriptures = God intended ones for us to solve!!!

There are no contradictions in scripture. What you call a contradiction is where the deepest secrets in the Bible are hidden.

 

[David in NJ]

There are no contradictions in scripture. What you call a contradiction is where the deepest secrets in the Bible are hidden.

YES = that is what i said

 

[David in NJ]

""" believe BOTH spiritual and physical """
Absolutely yet in Revelation the Greek word 'charagma' is used when referring to the MOTB
Without a visible mark on the head or hand that others can see with their eyes how will anyone know if the person they are dealing with has it ?
.
View attachment 88110

View attachment 88109

AGREE

 

[David in NJ]

You are still avoiding the question ... the fact is that someone could be physically forced to take a literal mark in a totalitarian regime. And at a personal level, a father could physically coerce his wife and children to comply. In that case, is the marked person lost?

Good and Valid questions

 

[David in NJ]

Most of the symbols used in Revelation are drawn from literal events/objects in the OT.
Do you know what lampstands in Rev 1:12 means?

Do you accept ALL these facts from Revelation???
a.) Literal
b.) Symbolic
c.) Physical
d.) Spiritual
e.) Prophetic

 

[Scott Downey]

It very well could be a physical visible mark. The devil is earthly, of the flesh

James 3 describes devilish wisdom, 15 Such wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

Having the devil's mark is inclusive, showing you belong to them
Not having it shows your an outsider, not part of that group.
People are all about badges, clubs, belonging, labels.

 

[Davidpt]

Some interpreters on both sides are arguing you can't be worshiping the beast until you receive it's mark first. Or maybe you can't be doing one without the other. Let's look at the contrast and see if that is true of the contrast.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Which chronology is correct? A) or B) below?

A) they are already His servants, are already worshiping Him, before they are even sealed.

B) They are sealed first. Then after they are sealed they then at that time become His servants, but not until they are sealed first. Therefore, they don't begin worshiping Him until they are sealed first.

Anyone that would choose option B), no wonder their view of the MOTB does not agree with the texts involved

Anyone that would choose Option A), then insist one can't worship the beast before they receive the mark, no wonder their view of the MOTB does not agree with the texts involved.


There is no MOTB until a beast ascends out of the sea first, a beast where one of it's 7 heads has a deadly wound and is healed. And that a 2nd beast rises out of the earth then fulfills everything written of it in Revelation 13. Including this---saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak

The same way there is no one being sealed in Revelation 7 until the time of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. Is one also going to argue that the sealing of them is for all times, that the trumpets and bowls are for all all times? If no, then why argue that the contrast, the MOTB, it is for all times? How is that being consistent?

None of that recorded in Rev 13:14-15 can precede Revelation 13:1. It follows Revelation 13:1. And that they are already marveling after the beast before verse 16 is even fulfilled. And that verse 16 can't get fulfilled until verse 14 and 15 are fulfilled first.

And some interpreters take the MOTB to be be applicable to all times, which is profoundly absurd based on Revelation 13 and what John said at the time of the visions in Revelation 17:8---The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit. Not to mention, there is also Revelation 16:2 to factor in. That verse makes no sense if the MOTB pertains to all times. That bowl gets poured out only one time, not thousands nor millions of times spread out over thousands of years. Therefore, everyone that has received the MOTB must all be alive at the same time, thus all of them living in the same era of time.

was--is not--and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit--are not the same thing. Per John's perspective at the time--'was' would be meaning before the time of these visions he was seeing. 'Is not'---would be meaning at the time of these visions he was seeing. 'and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit'--would be meaning post the time of these visions he was seeing.

In Revelation 13 it is only involving one of these time periods, not all 3 of them. And it is plainly crystal clear obvious which time period it is involving, meaning this one--'and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit'

 

[IndianaRob]

Some interpreters on both sides are arguing you can't be worshiping the beast until you receive it's mark first. Or maybe you can't be doing one without the other. Let's look at the contrast and see if that is true of the contrast.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Which chronology is correct? A) or B) below?

A) they are already His servants, are already worshiping Him, before they are even sealed.

B) They are sealed first. Then after they are sealed they then at that time become His servants, but not until they are sealed first. Therefore, they don't begin worshiping Him until they are sealed first.

Anyone that would choose option B), no wonder their view of the MOTB does not agree with the texts involved

Anyone that would choose Option A), then insist one can't worship the beast before they receive the mark, no wonder their view of the MOTB does not agree with the texts involved.


There is no MOTB until a beast ascends out of the sea first, a beast where one of it's 7 heads has a deadly wound and is healed. And that a 2nd beast rises out of the earth then fulfills everything written of it in Revelation 13. Including this---saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak,

None of that can precede Revelation 13:1. It follows Revelation 13:1. And that they are already marveling after the beast before verse 16 is even fulfilled. And that verse 16 can't get fulfilled until verse 14 and 15 are fulfilled first.

And some interpreters take the MOTB to be be applicable to all times, which is profoundly absurd based on Revelation 13 and what John said at the time of the visions in Revelation 17:8---The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit. Not to mention, there is also Revelation 16:2 to factor in. That verse makes no sense if the MOTB pertains to all times. That bowl gets poured out only one time, not thousands nor millions of times spread out over thousands of years. Therefore, everyone that has received the MOTB must all be alive at the same time, thus all of them living in the same era of time.

was--is not--and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit--are not the same thing. Per John's perspective at the time--'was' would be meaning before the time of these visions he was seeing. 'Is not'---would be meaning at the time of these visions he was seeing. 'and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit'--would be meaning post the time of these visions he was seeing.

In Revelation 13 it is only involving one of these time periods, not all 3 of them. And it is plainly crystal clear obvious which time period it is involving, meaning this one--'and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit'

When did the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord?

 

[Davidpt]

When did the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord?

You are asking the wrong question. The correct question is--when will the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord? The answer---when the 7th trumpet sounds. And that the 7th trumpet is yet to sound, not already sounded, like your question implies. So what point were you intending to make here? Let's assume you are correct, the 7th trumpet already sounded. Which would then prove what per your view of things?

 

[IndianaRob]

You are asking the wrong question. The correct question is--when will the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord? The answer---when the 7th trumpet sounds. And that the 7th trumpet is yet to sound, not already sounded, like your question implies. So what point were you intending to make here? Let's assume you are correct, the 7th trumpet already sounded. Which would then prove what per your view of things?

My point is Jesus being King of kings and the kingdoms of this world becoming His has already happened. That means everything prior to that has already happened.

If the 7th trumpet announced a reign that Jesus didn't already have, then explain these:

Matthew 28:18 — "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Jesus said that after the resurrection. Not "will be given." Already given.

Ephesians 1:20-22 — God "set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion" and "hath put all things under his feet." All past tense. Already done at the ascension.

1 Corinthians 15:25 — "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." Paul says he must reign — meaning the reign is current and ongoing, not waiting for a future trumpet to begin it.

 

[Davidpt]

My point is Jesus being King of kings and the kingdoms of this world becoming His has already happened. That means everything prior to that has already happened.

I for certain agree with this logic. No disputes there then.

If the 7th trumpet announced a reign that Jesus didn't already have, then explain these:

Matthew 28:18 — "All power is given unto me in heaven and in is initially meaning? Jesus said that after the resurrection. Not "will be given." Already given.

Ephesians 1:20-22 — God "set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion" and "hath put all things under his feet." All past tense. Already done at the ascension.

1 Corinthians 15:25 — "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." Paul says he must reign — meaning the reign is current and ongoing, not waiting for a future trumpet to begin it.

When the 7th trumpet sounds and after it sounds, all of the following must follow. How many of the following below can fit with when Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:20-22 is initially meaning? BTW, I do not disagree---past tense, in their case.

1) the nations were angry

2) thy wrath is come

3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

4) shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth

5) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail,


Even if you think you can explain the earthquake meant, you still have to explain the great hail as well. Obviously though, this earthquake and great hail is expanded on further, in Revelation 16 and the 7th bowl. Thus is already explained.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[rwb]

""" believe BOTH spiritual and physical """
Absolutely yet in Revelation the Greek word 'charagma' is used when referring to the MOTB
Without a visible mark on the head or hand that others can see with their eyes how will anyone know if the person they are dealing with has it ?
.
View attachment 88110

View attachment 88109

Why does Revelation tell us it is those who worship the beast and his image that receive the mark 'in' not on their right hand and forehead? How can a mark 'in' the right hand and forehead be visibly seen?

 

[Anchorite]

Why does Revelation tell us it is those who worship the beast and his image that receive the mark 'in' not on their right hand and forehead? How can a mark 'in' the right hand and forehead be visibly seen?

Ever heard of an RFID tattoo? It doesn’t need to be visibly seen, so long as it is scannable.

 

[rwb]

Ever heard of an RFID tattoo? It doesn’t need to be visibly seen, so long as it is scannable.

You assume this represents the mark of the beast? Can you prove this assumption from the Bible?

 

[IndianaRob]

I for certain agree with this logic. No disputes there then.



When the 7th trumpet sounds and after it sounds, all of the following must follow. How many of the following below can fit with when Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:20-22 is initially meaning? BTW, I do not disagree---past tense, in their case.

1) the nations were angry

2) thy wrath is come

3) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

4) shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth

5) there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail,


Even if you think you can explain the earthquake meant, you still have to explain the great hail as well. Obviously though, this earthquake and great hail is expanded on further, in Revelation 16 and the 7th bowl. Thus is already explained.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Two things one is the resurrection and the other is the great hail and lightning’s and such.

Take just a minute and read Psalm 18. Here is part of it just to show the context and timing of the events described there. Yes that’s David speaking but he’s speaking prophetically of Christ. Read what God did when Christ was killed.

Psa 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psa 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

Psa 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 18:9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

Psa 18:10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

Psa 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

Psa 18:14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

Psa 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

 

[Davidpt]

My point is Jesus being King of kings and the kingdoms of this world becoming His has already happened. That means everything prior to that has already happened.

Just so we are on the same page here. When I said in that other post I agree with this logic, it doesn't mean I was agreeing with you that the 7th trumpet has already sounded. The logic I'm agreeing with is this. Once the 7th trumpet sounds, regardless when it sounds, be it in the past or be it in the future, would then equal at that point in time exactly what you said here--That means everything prior to that has already happened.

Which then agrees with my view even if the 7th trumpet is still future. It means Revelation 13 is entirely in the past when the 7th trumpet sounds. IOW, when the 7th trumpet sounds we are then in the time of God's wrath upon the beast and fp and those worshiping the beast and having it's mark. A literal mark? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't fully made up my mind either way. Though I do tend to lean more towards literal, the fact there is now technology such as AI, and it keeps evolving. We haven't even seen anything yet, compared to down the road, though what we have seen is already mind boggling, no doubt