MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??
- Thread starter PeterAndroz
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All the passages are speaking of the same two resurrections and they are future. The saved resurrect at the Coming and "the rest of the dead" resurrect after a thousand years.
You & I probably wont agree with everything but at least you are willing to politely discuss differences
"the Coming"
I believe that for believers today that is only 1 Thess 4:17, 1 Cor 15:52
What are your views ?
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Those both discuss things that happen at the second coming. Not sure what you meant by "only".
Matt 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
There is a 'coming' after this yet I don't see where Paul teaches a GREAT TRIBULATION before the 1 Thess 4:17, 1 Cor 15:52 'coming'
Are there verses from Paul that you believe teach the same GT as in Matt 24:21 ?
More avoidance. That is all you have here. You cannot address the numerous holes in what you have been taught.
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He says this which is the same timeframe:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Things happening before the second coming: Deception, Apostasy by Christians, man of sin (AC) claiming to be God, destroyed at second coming.
Paul spoke a lot about tribulation in his life and the life of believers so no surprise he doesn't really need to add that in these verses as it should be assumed.
I would like to suggest a little word study that I found helpful ... look up the Greek word translated "temple" (naos) and see how Paul consistently uses this word, especially in the expressioin "the temple of God".
Truth7t7
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You post the description on the Millennialist view why?
The information provided is false, and I'm fully aware of the false teaching you present, perhaps you need to address my post and show me in Rev 20:1-6 where a literal kingdom, throne, or mortal humans on this earth are seen, I eagerly await your response?
Jesus Is The Lord
Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?
1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?
The Above Claims (Don't Exist)
Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ
100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time
2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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From my online forum experience, I would say that most regard the temple in 2 Thes 2:4 as literal.
Truth7t7
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Your Claim Is "False"
Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim
1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return
(Destroyed Them All)
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)
John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus teaches the exact same thing in John 5
28 Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice
29 and shall come forth — they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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John 5
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son,
23 that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent Him.
24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice
29 and shall come forth — they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 “I can of Mine own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent Me.
That’s right Scott it does say the same thing and that “hour” was the ninth hour.
Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
The tearing down of strongholds of bad doctrine goes on and on.
People make the word of God of no effect by their own understanding and traditions.
It was true back then and still true today, God views them as hypocrites who teach as doctrines the commandments of men.’
Mark 7:13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 7 - New King James Version
Defilement Comes from Within - Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they...
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—[d]the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you [e]reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Tearing Down Strongholds of Bad Doctrine
The Bible teaches that believers are equipped to “tear down strongholds” — spiritual fortresses that oppose God’s truth and hinder our walk with Christ. In 2 Corinthians 10:4, Paul writes: “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God for the pulling down of strongholds” Bible Gateway+1. This means our spiritual weapons are not physical, but are divinely powerful to demolish false beliefs, sinful attitudes, and anything that exalts itself against God’s knowledge Bible Gateway.
What Are Strongholds?
A stronghold is a stronghold of the mind or heart that gives Satan power over a person. It can be:- False doctrines that contradict Scripture.
- Evil arguments defending sin or rebellion.
- High things — prideful attitudes that resist God’s truth lincolnhousechurches.org.
- Fear, doubt, or insecurity.
- Sinful habits or relationships.
- Beliefs that distort God’s Word biblerepository.com.
How to Tear Them Down
- By the Word of God: Scripture refutes false teaching and replaces it with truth (2 Cor. 10:5).
- By prayer: Prayer is a direct line to God, breaking chains and fortifying the spirit (James 5:16; Phil. 4:6-7) biblerepository.com.
- By obedience: Submitting every thought to Christ’s authority dismantles the foundation of strongholds Bible Gateway.
The Ongoing Battle
In summary: Strongholds of bad doctrine are spiritual fortresses that must be continually dismantled through God’s Word, prayer, and obedience. The “tearing down” goes on because the enemy is active, but God’s power ensures that His truth will prevail.
I remember how hard it was for me to come out of that belief system. It took years of people showing me things over and over that didn’t align with what I believed was the truth.The tearing down of strongholds of bad doctrine goes on and on.
People make the word of God of no effect by their own understanding and traditions.
It was true back then and still true today, God views them as hypocrites who teach as doctrines the commandments of men.’
Mark 7:13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now [a]when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, [b]they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands [c]in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.Bible Gateway passage: Mark 7 - New King James Version
Defilement Comes from Within - Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they...www.biblegateway.com
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—[d]the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you [e]reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Many forces against the knowledge of God are at work in a person's life
Agree but a lot of it is our own selves. It was hard for me to admit to myself that I had been wrong all that time.
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