Actually Jesus returns twice...
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jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Thankyou Grace.
Yes, we are all glorified at the same time at his coming. Relief is coming Amen.
When he appears, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is, having a glorified body like his.
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day
Nothing pretrib about the above is there?
We are all ,past or present, glorified when the Lord comes again in the above scripture.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
As you said....
When he appears, we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is, having a glorified body like his.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, do you believe the following verse describes what will happen when the rapture occurs?
2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
What else is happening on the day he appears?
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day
The same day he appears he brings either rapturous relief or eternal destruction.
Do you accept this?
What type 'coming' would you describe this as ?
1 Thess 4:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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No because it ignores that verse 9 starts out with a future tense verb, opposed to the present tense verb in a previous verse (taking vengeance).
That means the events described in verse 7-8 are happening during the second coming but the punishment of everlasting destruction is a future event away from the second coming event. So, the day in verse 10 is not the day of verse 7, but a different day set into the future from the day of the second coming. The verb tenses prove all of this but your interpretation ignores all that and tries to force all of it into the same verb tense happening on the same day. Textually that is very incorrect. Same issue in Rev 19 where Amill claims all humans are slain yet the rule over the nation is future tense proving a rule over the nations happens AFTER Armageddon and that cannot happen if they are all slain.
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jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
The same one he was teaching them in his second letter
The same one he teaches here....,
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure [from this world] is at hand and I will soon go free. 7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error].
8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.
Body like his glorious body.
First, hey JW good to see a fellow sth aussie boy here.
Now no crows power nonsense ok
....
1 Thess 4:16-17 appears to teach that Christ descends into the clouds for believers to meet Him in the clouds
If you believe or understand otherwise, why ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
First, hey JW good to see a fellow sth aussie boy here.
Now no crows power nonsense ok
....
As you wish.
Hopefully you will see the crow's power tonight against top team Fremantle. 
Yes, he does come a second time to gather and glorify us.
Paul clearly explains what becomes of the ungodly in his second letter to them on the day we are glorified.
My fav team is ABV > Anyone But Victoria :)
As you wish.
Hopefully you will see the crow's power tonight against top team Fremantle. 
Yes, he does come a second time to gather and glorify us.
Paul clearly explains what becomes of the ungodly in his second letter to them on the day we are glorified.
..
Yes, he does come a second time to gather and glorify us.
US >> the dead in C & we ..alive & remain ??
...
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's a popular saying in S/A
Yes of course, all of us who have believed.
Do you agree with Paul in 2thess as to what happens to the ungodly on this day?
Hit me with the 2 Thess verses you are referring toYes, that's a popular saying in S/A
Yes of course, all of us who have believed.
Do you agree with Paul in 2thess as to what happens to the ungodly on this day?
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Already have.
2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day
The same day he appears he brings either rapturous relief or eternal destruction.
Do you accept this?
Well, Jesus taught that it did, in Luke 17
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, [f]‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is [g]within you.”
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them.
24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed
The Sudden Destruction..... seems to have been forgotten... and delayed ,,,, by some posters.
But their sudden destruction happens on the Day of Christ's return.....The Day of Wrath, that LAST DAY of this world, wen He comes as a thief in the night, unexpectedly.
www.biblegateway.com
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore [b]comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.
But their sudden destruction happens on the Day of Christ's return.....The Day of Wrath, that LAST DAY of this world, wen He comes as a thief in the night, unexpectedly.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 5 - New King James Version
The Day of the Lord - But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as...
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore [b]comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.
See also Paul and Jesus warn us to be on our guard, watch and wait for Him, in Luke 17, to be READY for HIS return, and it comes at a time unexpectedly as a thief... His return is after the tribulation...v27 is the rapture...
21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
The Great Tribulation
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ [f]spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.The Parable of the Fig Tree
28 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that [i]it is near—at the doors! 30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.No One Knows the Day or Hour
32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”Thx for reposting them JW
Always happy to politely discuss differing points of view.
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re >>>> 1 The 4:16-17
I understand that those caught up (alive & dead) are the saved & sealed by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30 Gospel
The dead not caught up will go to the Great White Throne Judgement
The alive not caught up can still be saved but will not be at the JSOC - Judgement Seat Of Christ where the caught up will be
.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
JSOC
Rom 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Cor 3:
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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Are you saying the city of Sodom will be burned at the second coming? How many live there? WHat about all the other humans not in Sodom?
This doesn't say what you want it to, and you avoided what I posted because it proves Amill wrong. Gotta love Greek verb tenses.
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