Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

[Scott Downey]

There is ZERO scripture that says there is a post trib rapture.

The only 'rapture' Jesus taught is the post trib rapture, every single thing He teaches for that is post trib.

There is no other gathering of His people taught by Him, prove it to yourself, all you need do is read what He says.

 

[Scott Downey]

Indeed. The word "tribulation" occurs 21 times in the New Testament (NKJV). In many of the verses containing the word, it is taught that Christians go through tribulation. For example, Jesus told the disciples:

Jhn_16:33 (NKJV) These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Look how John refers to himself and his readers in Revelation 1:

Rev_1:9 (NKJV) I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation also talks of the company of the redeemed, that "multitude which no man can number, as those who came out of the great tribulation, not those who escaped the great tribulation by being raptured before it happened:

(Rev 7:9-17 NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

All need do is read Mark 13 to understand rapture is post trib, he never says anything about gathering His people before that, never, not once.

 

[Scott Downey]

All Day of the Lord verses, old and new testament point to the destruction of the ungodly sinners, and the preservation of the righteous, on this earth. Some will survive tribulation of the last days.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4 - New King James Version

Plea for Purity - Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your...

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The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

!!!!!
This is the rapture passage often quoted. The only important thing is that it happens with the coming of Christ.
Christ said he would come again in glory with His angels, there is no secret rapture, this one mentions the trumpet of God and voice of an archangel, it is loud and visible event to all people. Some believers have remained alive...

Every eye shall see Him coming on the clouds of heaven, believing and unbelieving.

Matthew 26
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”

64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!

 

[Scott Downey]

The church is looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, as the next major event to come.

This appearing is the second coming....

Bible Gateway passage: Titus 2 - New King James Version

Qualities of a Sound Church - But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine...

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11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

 

[CrowCross]

The only 'rapture' Jesus taught is the post trib rapture, every single thing He teaches for that is post trib.

There is no other gathering of His people taught by Him, prove it to yourself, all you need do is read what He says.

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Have you not read Rev 6?
8 Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Have you not read Rev 8? Here is a small portion of it...
7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,aand many people died from the bitter waters.

Are you really going to tell me...as you said...."During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard."?????????

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Of course not...The only time that meets this criteria is a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Scott Downey]

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Have you not read Rev 6?
8 Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Have you not read Rev 8? Here is a small portion of it...
7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,aand many people died from the bitter waters.

Are you really going to tell me...as you said...."During the tribulation period the world keeps on functioning although the times are hard."?????????

With Noah: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage...with Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.....do you think this is what the end of the 7 year tribulation will look like?

Of course not...The only time that meets this criteria is a pre-trib rapture.

There is not 2 raptures, just one gathering taught in scripture.

Your stuck...Revelation is full of symbolic language and how do you suppose these things using angels and such are manifested on this old earth? Circumstances occur, as in natural disasters and wars.

This world keeps functioning, people eat, work, and go through the motions of daily life, as best they can.

The great TRIBULATION actually ends, after which people say Peace and Safety!

I take it from your words, the great tribulation is never ending, just worse and worse and worse until the return of Christ?

Well that is ungodly nonsense, Christ never taught that, plainly just a lie. For the elect's sake God shortens the tribulation days, meaning they end for the very purpose of saving people alive until the return of Christ, which includes the ELECT, His very own people are the elect.

Something you refuse to acknowledge, as in your doctrine they were lifted off planet years before. But there they all are.

Mark 13
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the [g]elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

v27 is this rapture... Our gathering to Him includes all things in Christ in heaven and on earth, all of us wherever we are meet with Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus says HE COMES AS A THIEF, the world is saying PEACE AND SAFETY! Then Jesus appears, the world burns, and they are judged.

KJ21
“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”

Mathew 24
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

1 Thess 5
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

[Scott Downey]

SO THEN LUKE 17
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Can only be true if people are feeling relaxed, and say PEACE and SAFETY!
But then a sudden destruction

Total agreement with all those verse in post #129, my prior post....

But people object cause it does not agree with their private doctrine on how revelation plays out.....
Well the great tribulation ended, people are now feeling that peace and safety. Cause after the tribulation is when Christ returns

But in those days, after that tribulation

THOSE DAYS! AFTER the Tribulation! God shortened the days of tribulation cause otherwise all flesh would have been destroyed...

It is not a true peace, things are not better spiritually, the world still lies in wickedness.

 

[CrowCross]

There is not 2 raptures, just one gathering taught in scripture.

There are two comings of Christ...the first time is at the rapture when Jesus returns in the same way He left...and Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.
The actual physical 2nd coming is when Jesus returns on the white horse...and splits open the Mt. of Olives.

 

[Scott Downey]

There are two comings of Christ...the first time is at the rapture when Jesus returns in the same way He left...and Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.
The actual physical 2nd coming is when Jesus returns on the white horse...and splits open the Mt. of Olives.

I know this is what you have been taught, but it is not scriptural. You using that vision in revelation to create doctrine. Jesus never mentioned riding a white horse when He returns.
All He ever said is He is coming again, like this, as a glorious return.
You can say riding a horse is viewed as a glorious return, why not in an Air Force fighter jet?
The symbolism of the white horse was viewed as Him having power and authority for waging war, and commanding armies .

Yes the second coming is not like the first, but there is never any third coming taught in scripture, it is a man made doctrine.
And when He comes He will judge the nations and sit on the throne of His glory.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 25:31

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations​

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 9:26
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

 

[CrowCross]

I know this is what you have been taught, but it is not scriptural. You using that vision in revelation to create doctrine. Jesus never mentioned riding a white horse when He returns.

No, Jesus never said he would return on a white horse....but John did.

All He ever said is He is coming again, like this, as a glorious return.
You can say riding a horse is viewed as a glorious return, why not in an Air Force fighter jet?
The symbolism of the white horse was viewed as Him having power and authority for waging war, and commanding armies .

If you want to shift gears and go in this direction...considering the angels said Jesus would return in the way He left...where was all of this having power and authority for waging war, and commanding armies as Jesus ascended?

Yes the second coming is not like the first, but there is never any third coming taught in scripture, it is a man made doctrine.
And when He comes He will judge the nations and sit on the throne of His glory.

If you say so.

Did you know Rev 14:17-20 may be yet another coming?

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 25:31

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations​

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 9:26
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

 

[Scott Downey]

Blameless in the coming Day of the Lord Jesus, this is the final and second coming.
The coming as a thief is the final coming and is the second one

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 1 - New King James Version

Greeting - Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both...

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4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all [b]utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed [c]in you,

7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!

Revelation 14
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings [a]of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, [b]Armageddon.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You got the Satanic deception occuring after which Christ comes as a thief
Christ alway comes as a thief when He comes again
See the above, He comes as a thief. yet this is well along into the time of the end for the world....

 

[Scott Downey]

THIEF coming of Christ after the tribulation, after the satanic deceptions, the elect of Christ still on this earth.
His coming, then the rapture, after the great tribulation is a sudden destruction for those of the world. The flood comparison taking them all away.

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


TOOK and TAKEN are describing the destruction of the wicked and unbelieving when Christ comes. Christ using the FLOOD analogy to show what happens when they are taken away