The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Matthias]

It was also to reclaim Christian territory from a foreign army.

Catholic territory. What does that do for you?

It's evidence that the Catholic church was willing to take action and not simply tell it's people to "just pray about it".

The primitive Christians also took action beyond to “just pray about it” -> evangelism.

Attracting new members.

I read daily of the Roman Catholic Church attracting new members.

What's being done to address it? How many offenders have been punished?

Catholic sources should be consulted for that information. How interested in pursuing it are you?

That's another way of saying it's incompatible.

Yes.

In what areas?

In all areas where you’re looking for a Christianity to match your values.

But relies on the world to protect it's members from outside threats by your own admission.

It relies on God and the Messiah to protect its members; God and the Messiah use the governments of the world as one means - not the only means - to accomplish it.

So you're not of the world, you don't like the world, but you need the world.

See above.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven you’re looking, in part, for a Christianity which kills those who seek to kill it. There are other options for you besides Catholicism.

I represent primitive Christianity, which didn’t and doesn’t kill those who seek to kill it.

 

[Matthias]

“When we refuse to see the image of God in others, we prepare our hearts for violence. Racism and genocide begin not with weapons, but with a failure to love” - Henri Nouwen

The crusaders didn’t love their enemies and their Islamic enemies didn’t love them. Do you love your enemies @Riven?

 

[Riven]

Catholic territory. What does that do for you?

Catholics aren't Christians? It's either Christian territory or it isn't.

The primitive Christians also took action beyond to “just pray about it” -> evangelism.

That's better than nothing I suppose. But it does little against an occupying force.

I read daily of the Roman Catholic Church attracting new members.

It is a lie to keep up spirits. They face significant generational attrition.

Catholic sources should be consulted for that information. How interested in pursuing it are you?

From what I've read, it's swept under the rug. The church apologizes and vows to do better, but there's no real punishment for the offender.

Yes.

Then why does this concept of Judeo-Christianity even exist?

In all areas where you’re looking for a Christianity to match your values.

That's a difficult question to answer. I suppose order is the value that I desire most. But also rationality and political realism.

It relies on God and the Messiah to protect its members; God and the Messiah use the governments of the world as one means - not the only means - to accomplish it.

Semantics.

 

[Matthias]

Catholics aren't Christians?

Catholics aren’t primitive Christians.

It's either Christian territory or it isn't.

Have you ever heard Protestants say that Catholics aren’t Christians?

That's better than nothing I suppose. But it does little against an occupying force.

The occupying force is converted. The enemies of the Messiah are made his disciples. That’s the Great Commission.

It is a lie to keep up spirits. They face significant generational attrition.

If that’s your position then forget them and their history. Look for another Christianity.

Then why does this concept of Judeo-Christianity even exist?

The concept exists because Christianity is connected with, rests upon, the Hebrew Bible. See Ephesians 2:20.

That's a difficult question to answer. I suppose order is the value that I desire most. But also rationality and political realism.

What kind of order are you alluding to? You’re looking for a Christianity that is rational and political, in addition to the value of order.

Semantics.

Scriptural facts.

 

[Matthias]

Catholics aren't Christians?

I’m neither Catholic nor Protestant.

Do you think Catholics believe that I’m a Christian? Do you think I am a Christian?

According to scripture, who does the territory which they occupy really belong to? The answer is in the New Testament, and it is based on a prophecy found in Genesis. You’ll have to agree with Paul in order to get the right answer.

***

It doesn’t belong to the Catholic church-state. It is promised by God to Abraham and to his seed, the Messiah.

Because I belong to the Messiah, it also belongs to me.

Don’t believe me. Believe Paul.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven the Catholics tortured and killed my Protestant ancestors. (The most famous incident involving my Protestant ancestors is known as Wyatt’s Rebellion.) My Protestant ancestors tortured and killed Catholics. My Anabaptist ancestors were tortured and killed by Catholics and by Protestants. My Anabaptist ancestors didn’t torture or kill Catholics and Protestants, nor did they torture and kill anyone else.

Wyatt's rebellion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. The threat of Islamic expansion was very much real. Or do you think Christians were wrong to oppose it?


No. From other people, their feelings, their expectations, etc. For most of my life, I tried to make other people happy, even if it made me unhappy. It's no way to live. Especially given how temporary this life is.

You and Matthias are having a good conversation and I don't want to intrude...
but want to say the following.

It is our job, as Christians to do for others -- make them happy? We'd have to discuss what that means, but not here.
Probably that you changed yourself in some way for their sake.

My point is that we can only do so much and then we get burned out.
We have to pay careful attention to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.
If HE gives us the go-ahead, He will also supply the strength to do what He asks...
If we do everything on our own strength, we will reach a point that is unhealthy and that will help no one...
not the other person and not us.

Sorry for the preaching, but some read along and it's for them too.

I don't know. Carl Jung called it "shadow work". But I'm naturally suspicious of psychology. A lot of it is quackery.


I'm looking for a Christianity that's relevant, and more importantly, useful in the modern era.

 

[Debp]

You and Matthias are having a good conversation and I don't want to intrude...
but want to say the following.

It is our job, as Christians to do for others -- make them happy? We'd have to discuss what that means, but not here.
Probably that you changed yourself in some way for their sake.

My point is that we can only do so much and then we get burned out.
We have to pay careful attention to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.
If HE gives us the go-ahead, He will also supply the strength to do what He asks...
If we do everything on our own strength, we will reach a point that is unhealthy and that will help no one...
not the other person and not us.

Sorry for the preaching, but some read along and it's for them too.

Good points GodsGrace. @Riven I agree there's only so much you can do for others. Do what the Lord leads you to do, and leave people in God's hands.

 

[Matthias]

Catholics aren't Christians? It's either Christian territory or it isn't.

Do you think Catholics are Christians?

You’ve heard me say that Catholics and Protestants are Christians and that Christianity is fractured and fragmented.

I’m not questioning that Catholics are Christians. Are you?

 

[Matthias]

I wrote the following to another member in another thread -

“Christianity is a broad spectrum and, whether someone likes it or not, the Catholic Church is on that spectrum. The same is true of Jewish monotheism.

Christianity began as a sect of, and within, Judaism.”

Post in thread 'Queen of heaven'
Queen of heaven

I’m not throwing Catholicism off the spectrum of Christianity. Neither am I throwing Protestantism off the spectrum of Christianity. They’re both there. I’m bound by the constraints of history to acknowledge the fact.

Why did you buck when I made the historically accurate statement that the Catholic crusaders defended the beliefs and practices of the Catholic church-state and its citizens against the Islamic invaders of the land where they resided?

The Protestant Reformation hadn’t yet happened.

P.S.

Some Catholics and some Protestants think that I’m a Christian; some don’t.

You have a Christian problem. Do you think I’m a Christian?

 

[GodsGrace]

I wrote the following to another member in another thread -

“Christianity is a broad spectrum and, whether someone likes it or not, the Catholic Church is on that spectrum. The same is true of Jewish monotheism.

Christianity began as a sect of, and within, Judaism.”

Post in thread 'Queen of heaven'
Queen of heaven

I’m not throwing Catholicism off the spectrum of Christianity. Neither am I throwing Protestantism off the spectrum of Christianity. They’re both there. I’m bound by the constraints of history to acknowledge the fact.

Why did you buck when I made the historically accurate statement that the Catholic crusaders defended the beliefs and practices of the Catholic church-state against the Islamic invaders?

Any person that believes the core Christian tenets is a Christian.
Ditto for a denomination.

Here they are: (I had a thread on this about a year ago)

THE TRINITY
THE DIVINITY OF JESUS
THE RESURRECTION
SALVATION BY GRACE+FAITH
AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE
BAPTISM
JUDGEMENT


If a denomination teaches the above..it is a Christian denomination.
If a person believes the above, they are a Christian person.

 

[Lambano]

 

[Matthias]

Any person that believes the core Christian tenets is a Christian.
Ditto for a denomination.

Here they are: (I had a thread on this about a year ago)

THE TRINITY
THE DIVINITY OF JESUS
THE RESURRECTION
SALVATION BY GRACE+FAITH
AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE
BAPTISM
JUDGEMENT


If a denomination teaches the above..it is a Christian denomination.
If a person believes the above, they are a Christian person.

Jesus and the apostles were neither Catholic nor Protestant. I am what the apostles are - primitive Christian.

 

[Matthias]

If a person believes the above, they are a Christian person.

@Riven understands what Paul wrote in Romans 13 about God and government. He believes that Paul is wrong. He also believes that man is better than God in the matter of the Holocaust. He further believes that the Golden Rule isn’t realistic teaching.

I don’t want this to become another discussion of the Trinity. If he does, then I’ll go there with him.

 

[Lambano]

Any person that believes the core Christian tenets is a Christian.
Ditto for a denomination.

Here they are: (I had a thread on this about a year ago)

....
SALVATION BY GRACE+FAITH
...

Luther was a guilt-ridden man who found no solace in knowing God.
He felt he had sinned too much and was never secure in his salvation.

He finally thought that there was only one way to find comfort:
Blame everything on God.
Stop believing that good works are necessary for salvation.
Obeying God is just too difficult.
The solution: FAITH ALONE.

I take it you are not a Christian by your own definition?

 

[Matthias]

I'm looking for a Christianity that's relevant, and more importantly, useful in the modern era.

I steadfastly maintain that the Christianity of the apostles is relevant and useful in the modern era. You reject that it is, and you’ve stated reasons to support your opposition. We’re past that in our conversation, but we can revisit it any time that you want to.

Do you accept or reject that the Christianity of Catholicism is relevant and useful in the modern era?

Do you accept or reject that the Christianity of Protestantism is relevant and useful in the modern era?

 

[Lambano]

There's also the question of whether the Christianity of the Apostles, the Christianity of Catholicism, and the Christianity of Protestantism is relevant and useful in ALL situations, foreseen and unforeseen.

(As well as proper application and implementation details.)

The latter two obviously evolved from the former in response to unforeseen historical situations.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus and the apostles were neither Catholic nor Protestant. I am what the apostles are - primitive Christian.

Well then,,,
you believe the core Christian teachings.
That makes you a Christian.

I am also a "primitive Christian."
So you also trust the Apostolic Fathers?

What would you say a primitive Christian is?
(I have a feeling we define it differently)

 

[GodsGrace]

I take it you are not a Christian by your own definition?

What definition is that?

Where's the popcorn?