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Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?
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Both show differences in the ascension and return showing that neither have to match in every detail making your no white horse thing invalid.
"""then he says he will return and we will be with him
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"""then no one goes to heaven anymore.""" ???
Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
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He returns to the Earth and that's where the church will be.
No, not after the second coming. All Christians will be immortal, no dying and no going to heaven. Earth is where t5he eternity i spent. Even God the Father will dwell with us here.
"""He returns to the Earth and that's where the church will be."""
Are there verses from Paul which supports that view ?
All is see is meet Christ in the clouds 1The4:17 then be in heavenly places - Eph2:6
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It's all through the NT like he ascended from Earth to Heaven, so returns from Heaven to Earth, and many verses speak of retuning with the dead/the saints.
The clouds is as high as the raptuted are taken. There is nothing about going back into heaven in fact the bible never places Jesus in heaven again.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This is something happening in peoples lives at the time Paul wrote this (past tense even), not about anyone being raptured to the 3rd heaven. It's symbolic, spiritually dead then spiritually quickened. Paul was on Earth when he wrote this, not actually in heaven literally.
...all through NT...
Not everything in the NT applies to you & I.
eg Why don't you & I do & live as in Acts 2:44-45 ?
Besides ? possibly ? on the new Rev 21 earth, where does Paul teach ""He returns to the Earth and that's where the church will be.""
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In heaven are many "mansions"...Jesus went to prepare a place for us and said He would come again and get us and take us there.
All saved are one new man.
Nobody i know of questions that
Jesus building mansions in heaven.
Jesus goes to heaven.
Jesus tells the disciples "where i am you may be also"
John goes to heaven
Paul goes to heaven
The elders in heaven
The martyrs in heaven.
The next group of martyrs in heaven and are so vast they can't be numbered.
The 2 witnesses raptured to Heaven.
Paradise emptied to heaven.
The church/bride in heaven becomes the wife in heaven.
The bride goes to the marriage and the door is shut in mat 25....hello...in heaven.
Your doctrine casts all of that down.
What do you miss is that heaven comes to earth at the one and only future coming of Christ. You ignore that. The new Jerusalem comes down to the new regenerated earth when Jesus comes. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Something we should establish here due to the array of false teaching floating around on the subject: whilst this eternal abode Christ is currently preparing for His people is now in heaven there is no proof in this text that this city will remain in heaven after His coming. Jesus simply promises: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Where Christ is at His appearing is where the heavenly city with its many mansions will be. This closely connects Christ to the holy city. One could take from this statement that the New Jerusalem will appear with Christ. It would be wise to see whether there is other Scripture to support or negate such a hypothesis.
Christ here directly addresses the undoubted concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure. In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.
The next thing of note we see is that Christ was, shortly after this incident, going to His “Father’s house” – heaven – to “prepare a place” for His people. That “place,” which was undoubtedly heavenly, and its final manifestation, is clearly identified here with the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word rendered “prepare” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word hetoimasoo which simply means ‘to make ready’. Therefore, Christ is presently preparing, or making ready, a heavenly abode for the redeemed of God, which they will inhabit at His glorious final all-consummating second coming.
The bride is represented as the holy city. Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: "And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."
The New Jerusalem is not just described as a city, it is also described as being the bride of Christ. This is similar to the redeemed Church being described as the temple of God made without hands in the New Testament. It is constructed with people not stones.
That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.
This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”
Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:
The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”
Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”
The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium, it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.
Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.
Then why would you argue my point then? Do you think these verses are talking about a future event?
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
@WPM makes a good point there.
"The New Jerusalem is not just described as a city, it is also described as being the bride of Christ."
The heavenly Jerusalem isn't a literal city — it's a spiritual city, made up of the bride of Christ. The people are the city.
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Are they in that passage? Where are saved Christians at the time the OHOE/NHNE happens? Didn't they leave heaven at the second coming? IOW none of the bride are in heaven so the city is not them but is their home coming from heaven to them. The city is a symbolic bride but a literal city, very well described in many many details.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The people in the book of life enter this city but those people are the bride also so they can't be themselves and enter into themselves.
Paul says we're baptized into one body, and a few verses later says we are the body of Christ. He's describing the same people two ways — as the thing itself, and as those who are brought into it.
Ephesians 2:19–22 puts it plainest. Paul says we're no longer strangers but fellow citizens and members of the household — that's coming in. Then in the same breath he says we're "builded together for an habitation of God" — that's being made part of the structure. He isn't describing two steps. Joining is how you become part of it.
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Still doesn't explain how the city is saved people yet the same passage says saved people travel to enter the city. The city is adorned as a bride, and the bride will enter into it.
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