Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[WPM]

Whazzamatta U?
Is all eschatology to be limited to the New Testament now?

Tell us what you believe and where you get it.

 

[WPM]

WPM asked:
<Where is the "Church" mentioned in Revelation 11:3?">
The two witnesses are God's witnesses, hence part of God's church.

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλησια = "assembly duly summoned." We do not come to God, rather God summons us (John 6:44).

<Where does it mention a rapture?>
"went up" (Revelation 11:3) = rapture.

<where does it mention a tribulation period?>
"Earthquake" (Revelation11:13) expresses the anger of of God, initiating the tribulation.

<were does it mention a third coming>
Revelation 19:11-21.
Crunch time, patience of God is at an end.

Are there not more than 2 witnesses in the Church? Is the whole Church killed before they go up to heaven? Are there no 'alive in Christ' caught up?

 

[quietthinker]

You are describing Pretrib. Can you show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven year tribulation, followed by a third coming?

I think I'm referencing quiet a few positions which don't hold up.

 

[William Barton]

Are there not more than 2 witnesses in the Church? Is the whole Church killed before they go up to heaven? Are there no 'alive in Christ' caught up?

The question was about the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-13 (Enoch and Elijah).

Most believers die before they go to heaven. Those who are still alive at the midpoint of the tribulation are raptured to heaven by Jesus, never having died (Revelation 14:14-16, 1Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Death is a blessing. Adam died at 930 years old; I would hate to live that long in a sinful world.

 

[William Barton]

A piece of Advice.

If you are ever on a Forum, or reading a commentary, or watching something on TV, and you are told......."Lets see what the Early Church Father's want us to know, and believe".

The early church fathers communicated the faith, and I honor them for that. We all have our own understandings about some of the details.

 

[WPM]

I think I'm referencing quiet a few positions which don't hold up.

I agree. Pretrib is unbiblical. So is Midtrib. That is why its advocates cannot give us clear prooftexts.

 

[WPM]

The question was about the two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-13 (Enoch and Elijah).

Yes, most believers die before they go to heaven.

Your position is as clear as mud.

Are you saying the two witnesses represent the overall Church? If not, then, where is your passage to support a rapture of the Church before the tribulation, and then your third coming?

You are being very evasive. Why?

 

[Davy]

Tell me it ain't so.
Today, at this late hour, pushing aside the bible, to place men, and their error , ahead of it.

If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black!

 

[Davy]

Of all the rapture theories out there, pretrib has the least scriptural context to it, barely any as a matter of fact and I used to be pretrib.

Say it with no fear, there is NO Bible Scripture support at all, for a pre-trib rapture.

The one's ultimately behind the false pre-trib rapture theory are Satan's host. Even C.I. Scofield associated with New York bankers and lawyers to fund his reference Bible. He even went to jail at one point for stealing one of his relative's inheritance.

Likewise, the British Bible scholars Wescott and Hort experimented with 'spiritism' (seances and stuff), which was popular back in the late 19th century. They made reference to it in their personal letters to each other, which photocopies of the same can be found on archive.org.

 

[Davy]

The early church fathers communicated the faith, and I honor them for that. We all have our own understandings about some of the details.

Is that like each believer is allowed to have a different interpretation of Bible Scripture? Not what Apostle Paul taught. Paul admonished those in Christ to speak the 'same thing'. Per 1 Corinthians 1, many of the brethren there were divided with following men.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black!

Ok.
You are wrong again.

Nothing burger post.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Tough job.
Postribbers in here with no bible trying futility to defend their non biblical doctrine.
Oh wait...that would be logical.

Nevermind.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Can one of you post a postrib rapture verse?
One verse?
One pointing to a postrib rapture?
One indirectly pointing to a postrib rapture?

Crickets.

 

[William Barton]

You are being evasive. Why?

I thought I was clear, apparently not. One more time:

IMO:
o The two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, both taken to heaven without dying.

o The pre-great-tribulation rapture is noted in the following verses.
-- John 14:2-3
-- 1Corinthians 15:51-53
-- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
-- Revelation 11:12
-- Revelation 14:16

The purpose is to spare believers from the bowl judgments (Revelation chapter 16).

 

[Davy]

Ok.
You are wrong again.

Nothing burger post.

Pre-trib theory is of the DEVIL.

God even showed back in Ezekiel 13 that He is against it!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Pre-trib theory is of the DEVIL.

God even showed back in Ezekiel 13 that He is against it!

Wooopie.
He speaks!!!!
...and nothing constructive!!!!!

 

[WPM]

I thought I was clear, apparently not. One more time:

IMO:
o The two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, both taken to heaven without dying.

o The pre-great-tribulation rapture is noted in the following verses.
-- John 14:2-3
-- 1Corinthians 15:51-53
-- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
-- Revelation 11:12
-- Revelation 14:16

The purpose is to spare believers from the bowl judgments (Revelation chapter 16).

No. Where is the Pretrib rapture of the Church, followed by your 7 year tribulation, followed by a 3rd coming? Quote the actual text. Underline where the seven year tribulation is taught. Where? I suspect you know that none of these texts teach that.

 

[WPM]

I thought I was clear, apparently not. One more time:

IMO:
o The two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, both taken to heaven without dying.

o The pre-great-tribulation rapture is noted in the following verses.
-- John 14:2-3
-- 1Corinthians 15:51-53
-- 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
-- Revelation 11:12
-- Revelation 14:16

The purpose is to spare believers from the bowl judgments (Revelation chapter 16).

So you have a rapture of the Church in Rev 11:11, then you have another rapture of those left behind in Rev 14:14, then a 4th coming of Jesus in Rev 19 for Israel? Really?

 

[William Barton]

Say it with no fear, there is NO Bible Scripture support at all, for a pre-trib rapture.

The one's ultimately behind the false pre-trib rapture theory are Satan's host. Even C.I. Scofield associated with New York bankers and lawyers to fund his reference Bible. He even went to jail at one point for stealing one of his relative's inheritance.

Likewise, the British Bible scholars Wescott and Hort experimented with 'spiritism' (seances and stuff), which was popular back in the late 19th century. They made reference to it in their personal letters to each other, which photocopies of the same can be found on archive.org.

The rapture (Jesus descended to a cloud taking up ("reaping") believers) is clearly shown in Revelation 11:12-13, 14:14-16.

It is prophesied also in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

It is pre-wrath ("seven plagues," Revelation 16:1-21).

 

[WPM]

The rapture (Jesus descended to a cloud taking up ("reaping") believers) is clearly shown in Revelation 11:12-13, 14:14-16.

It is prophesied also in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

It is pre-wrath ("seven plagues," Revelation 16:1-21).

So you have a rapture of the Church in Revelation 11:12-13, then you have another rapture of those left behind in Rev 14:14, then a 4th coming of Jesus in Rev 19 for Israel? Really?

Where in John 14:2-3, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 does it show a seven year tribulation after the rapture?