It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are simply telling me, as you've told me before, that you only believe some of God's promises, but not all, even when He ties His promise to the very sun rising and setting, but you don't believe it. On what basis do you believe any of God's promises?

How do you think you can have a fruitful discussion with anyone when you tell them lies like "you only believe some of God's promises"? Everyone here believes that God keeps all of His promises. We just don't have the same understanding of all of His promises. But, no one claims that He doesn't keep some of His promises. Making false accusations like this is completely unproductive.

Then why do you think God is wrong?

Ridiculous question. Have you just lost your mind at this point or something? While I obviously strongly disagree with you and others here about some things, I would never ask you or anyone else here such a ludicrous question as you asked him. I don't believe anyone here thinks that God is ever wrong.

 

[covenantee]

Maybe one day they will learn, but they will never change the facts that God takes the Church away just before the 70th week starts.

We'd like to see your learned explanation of how your decapitated undetermined 70th week comports with Daniel's declaration, that all 70 weeks are determined. Daniel 9:24

You obviously didn't learn yours from Daniel.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You're right. There must be better ways to use my time! Thank you for the nudge!

I was only speaking about the raptures timing, not everything else. Of course.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Notice how Pretribbers are incapable of answering simple questions, showing any proof-texts or engaging in civil discussion in regard to their beliefs. Check any thread. Their MO is ad hominem and avoidance. The Op here remains unchallenged. That is because they have no rebuttal. It is true and biblical. They would rather run with what they have been taught. They seem incapable of letting the Word speak for itself.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Op Note

Notice how Pretribbers are incapable of answering simple questions, showing any proof-texts or engaging in civil discussion in regard to their beliefs. Check any thread. Their MO is ad hominem and avoidance. The Op here remains unchallenged. That is because they have no rebuttal. It is true and biblical. They would rather run with what they have been taught. They seem incapable of letting the Word speak for itself.

Bet you are incapable of or avoid listening to this

https://messages.shorewoodbiblechurch.org/WEBMedia/H/2023-04-23T19-01-28_1153976449.MP3

 

[WPM]

Bet you are incapable of or avoid listening to this

https://messages.shorewoodbiblechurch.org/WEBMedia/H/2023-04-23T19-01-28_1153976449.MP3

LOL. Those who push outside links typically admit they cannot prove what they believe and cannot refute the truth before them. I will take this as a complement. You reinforce the thesis of the Op and the claim i made in my last post. No Pretrib can engage in a profitable discussion and prove their viewpoint. That is because it is not in the Bible.

Pretrib is on the ropes. It is on the run.

 

[PeterAndroz]

LOL. Those who push outside links typically admit they cannot prove what they believe and cannot refute the truth before them. I will take this as a complement. You reinforce the thesis of the Op and the claim i made in my last post. No Pretrib can engage in a profitable discussion and prove their viewpoint. That is because it is not in the Bible.

Pretrib is on the ropes. It is on the run.

LOL
WOW wpm, that was quick
What is your synopsis on that 50 minute teaching ?
I look forward to it :)

 

[WPM]

LOL
WOW wpm, that was quick
What is your synopsis on that 50 minute teaching ?
I look forward to it :)

Lol. I don't do outside links. I only engage with posters that can respond. By your avoidance, you obviously cannot address or rebut the Op. If you could you would.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Lol. I don't do outside links. I only engage with posters that can respond. By your avoidance, you obviously cannot address or rebut the Op. If you could you would.

""Lol. I don't do outside links.""
Church teachings aren't your thing because you know all there is to know.
Your my new GOTO

 

[WPM]

""Lol. I don't do outside links.""
Church teachings aren't your thing because you know all there is to know.
Your my new GOTO

No. I engage with real people who you can respond. I have no interest in wasting 50 minutes of my good time listening to false teaching.

Now, will you address the Op?

 

[PeterAndroz]

No. I engage with real people who you can respond. I have no interest in wasting 50 minutes of my good time listening to false teaching.

Now, will you address the Op?

What is there to address.
Everything you write is beyond reproach
You are my new GOTO
If I have a question, it is only you I will ask

 

[Laura]

One shall be taken, and the other left

Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”



After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly for the lost. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

Thus, the second coming of the Lord shall come in like manner, verse 39 confirms, “so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be."

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”





This is what false teaching produces. It is ridiculous! It is fanciful! It is absurd!



And then Pretribbers wonder why we do not take their arguments serious. That is because their arguments are a joke.

There is a catching away ("rapture") here, but no tribulation period following. That is because it is ongoing since the early Church. If Pretrib was true, this is where you would find it, but no, It is not here. Neither can you add it to the inspired text. That is forbidden. What follows Christ's climactic appearing then? Total destruction!

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Ok so I was here for none of the pre trib debates, nor have I read your post here, though I'm going to. But all I had to do was to see the title of this post and I said "Amen"

 

[PeterAndroz]

Ok so I was here for none of the pre trib debates, nor have I read your post here, though I'm going to. But all I had to do was to see the title of this post and I said "Amen"

In the trib you'll have to work to remain saved

 

[Scott Downey]

Pretrib rapture doctrines are popular fantasy, none of their foundation doctrines are real such as these verses used as validations
Rapture as a gathering is genuine, any pre trib timing of the gathering is bogus

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9
• 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
• Revelation 3:10
• John 14:1-4

 

[Scott Downey]

In the trib you'll have to work to remain saved

I don't know what you are implying here

 

[Scott Downey]

Paul in 2 Thess 1 teaches the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him is on the same Day of Christ
Some in the church were troubled that the Day is at hand, then warns to not let any man deceive you about this Day as it will not happen until happens the apostasy FIRST and then the antichrist shows up, is revealed onto the world, as that man of sin.

We have a large APOSTASY ongoing today which is part of the mystery of iniquity. The church Paul is teaching will not be gathered until the falling away from the faith and the man of sin is revealed, both must occur before our being gathered to Christ .

But of course the 'pre trib' rapturists short circuit all this and teach the church is removed from the world before the two things happen that Paul mentions.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if from us that the Day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.

5 Remember ye not that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—

9 even him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 and with all the deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,

12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 whereunto He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold to the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God even our Father, who hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus in John 17 prays for those God has given to Him and very specifically says to God this

KJ21
I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
ASV
I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
AMP
I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but that You keep them and protect them from the evil one.
AMPC
I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one.
BRG
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
CSB
I am not praying that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Bible Gateway passage: John 17 - 21st Century King James Version

These words spoke Jesus and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, "Father, the hour is come. Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him. And this is life eternal: that they...

www.biblegateway.com

These words spoke Jesus and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, “Father, the hour is come. Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,

2 as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.

3 And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified Thee on the earth; I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Thy name unto the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world. Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy Word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.

8 For I have given unto them the Words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.

9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom Thou hast given Me, for they are Thine.

10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name. Those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

13 “And now come I to Thee, and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them Thy Word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't know what you are implying here

'work/s'
Matt 25:44-46
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Scott Downey]

In John 17:15, Jesus explicitly states in His high priestly prayer: "I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one."

It completely torpedoes the entire theological premise of a pre-tribulation rapture.

If Jesus explicitly prays against the idea of His people being prematurely removed or extracted out of the world prior to the end, then inventing a secret mechanism to vacuum the church out of history contradicts Christ's own expressed desire for how His followers interact with a hostile world.

They are preserved in it, through tribulation, until the climactic harvest on the Last Day.

 

[PeterAndroz]

In John 17:15, Jesus explicitly states in His high priestly prayer: "I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one."

It completely torpedoes the entire theological premise of a pre-tribulation rapture. If Jesus explicitly prays against the idea of His people being prematurely removed or extracted out of the world prior to the end, then inventing a secret mechanism to vacuum the church out of history contradicts Christ's own expressed desire for how His followers interact with a hostile world. They are preserved in it, through tribulation, until the climactic harvest on the Last Day.

""It completely torpedoes the entire theological premise of a pre-tribulation rapture""
That's your opinion.
If remaining saved requires ''doing/not doing'' then you are in a different 'age' than today