Taken
Well-Known Member
When an interested reader searches the Scriptures, and can not find what they were told and “asks” the speaker… Then does the speaker give the Scripture.
Pretrib fallacies
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What was your point?
Out of the eight that survived in Noah's day?
Did that stop wickedness?
We now find wicked people once again.
You can't stop wicked until all the righteous are resurrected and God decrees no more reproduction.
I cannot wrap my brain around what it is you are trying to make a point about.
Taken
Well-Known Member
John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Any man who Does NOT Reach Out and Take his Gift…
LOSES HAVING his Gift… Right?
John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Glory to God,
Taken
Real simple: Jesus comes the next time to judge mankind. All the elect are caught up. All the wicked are destroyed. All men are then raised and judged. Creation is regenerated.
The purpose of the rapture is to remove Christians from the land, so they may avoid the coming bowl judgments.
The rapture is noted five times in the New Testament:
o John 14:2-3
o 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o Revelation 11:12
o Revelation 14:16
This is mid-tribulation, right before the great tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
It's in the BOOK.
The rapture is noted five times in the New Testament:
o John 14:2-3
o 1Corinthians 15:51-53
o 1Thessalonians 4:15-17
o Revelation 11:12
o Revelation 14:16
This is mid-tribulation, right before the great tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
It's in the BOOK.
Last edited:
Where Pretribbers err is in making the wrath of God a 7 yr trib or any protracted trib. Nowhere in Scripture teaches that. They have no Scripture that show this. That is why in classic Van Imp style they list references and do not quote passages.
What Bible are you reading?
Do this.
Start to copy and paste the actual verses you claim, and don't just give chapter and verse numbers as if we need to stop and look them up.
That stops our thinking on what you are saying at that moment.
And besides... We can have no idea if your verses say what you claim they do until we stop and look them up.
That is lazy and sloppy aggression.
You provide the chapter and verses you claim make your point so we all can read them.
We do not win by confusing the other and pushing our idea through.
In Christianity we win by ending confusion and stabilizing another for our own benefit.
For we are all parts of the same body!
There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body.
It is the same with Christ. We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are
formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or
free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
Slow down!
You could have done this and given us something to think with, instead of just numbers.
John 14:2-3
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1Thessalonians 4:15-17
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Revelation 11:12
Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
Revelation 14:16
So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
Note! Revelation 11:12 and 14:16?
Have nothing to do with the Rapture.
We need good teachers to end the confusion.
Where is the Pretrib rapture of the Church, followed by your 7 year tribulation, followed by a 3rd coming?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”
We can see from the wording of the text that this passage is describing one unitary event. Paul correlates the rescue of God's people after coming of the Lord, with the pouring out of the wrath of God upon the wicked at the same time. He was talking to Christians here in Thessaloniki and expressing the same comfort for the same overall climatic event. He is assuring God’s people that this day when Christ comes as a thief in the night will not catch them unexpected. They will not be sleeping. They will be awake. He is exhorting them to “watch and be sober.”
Davy
Well-Known Member
I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, that's the only sect I claim, although I was raised in a mainstream Protestant Church, which I won't mention which, as it follows man's theory of Preterism, which I do not. Thus I don't recommend wasting time debating seminary categories, because staying with God's Word as written is what is important, therefore, let the chips fall where they may.
Because that is what Apostle Paul showed in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 Scripture about Christ's coming to gather His Church. Those saints who sleep in Jesus rise first, and then He brings them with Him when He comes, Paul said. Then Paul showed in the next 17th verse those saints that still alive on earth are at that same time "caught up" into the "air" by Jesus and His risen saints at His descent to this earth.
Psalms 2 is where God promised to set Christ Jesus as King upon His holy hill of Zion, and that He would rule the nations with that "rod of iron". So Jesus was only repeating Old Testament prophecy about His future literal... physical... on this earth reign over the nations starting at His 2nd coming, and that Psalms 2 Scripture includes His reign over the unsaved.
(See Zechariah 14:16-20; Isaiah 59:18:21 through Isaiah 60:1-22; Isaiah 24:21-23 reveals the kings that followed the Antichrist at the end of this world will be locked in Satan's pit prison with him "for many days", and then "visited")...
Isa 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
KJV
That parallels Revelation 20:1-3 about Satan being locked in his pit prison for the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. And then he is loosed one final time after the "thousand years", and Isaiah 24:22 about those kings locked with him being visited after many days is the Old Testament parallel to that future event of Revelation 20:7-8.
Even in Revelation 3:9, Jesus promised His elect Church of Philadelphia that He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" (Christ's worse enemies on earth) to come and worship Him at the feet of His elect. That has never... happened in this present world, and will not happen for this world, but only at Christ's future return and reign over the wicked and unsaved nations.
It is simple, that is for those who study all their Bible, and not just form extra-Biblical doctrines outside The Bible based solely on the New Testament Books.
Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved with His elect is what Apostle Peter was pointing to in 2 Peter 3:8-9...
2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV
That future "thousand years" reign by Christ Jesus and His elect is for preaching The Gospel to those who never were able to hear during this present world, and to teach them the difference between the holy and the profane, the clean and the unclean. It is the only time that Apostle Paul mentioned about the majority of his brethren, the spiritually blinded Jews which God Himself blinded, who will during that "thousand years" have their spiritual eyes and ears open to The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
There is the only one last trumpet. It sounds at Christ’s climactic singular return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.
The coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” The glorification of the kingdom of God sees the simultaneous destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.
Psalm 2 is being fulfilled now. There is no future millennium. You have zero corroboration for that.
Paul joins Peter in relating the fulfilment of the Messianic enthronement to Christ’s current kingly reign in heaven. This truth is confirmed in Acts 13:22-23. Paul speaking to the religious Jews in Antioch says, concerning the promise of the Messiah and His rise to the throne of David, which was made unto their forefathers, “he (God) raised (aorist active indicative) up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man’s (David’s) seed hath God according to his promise raised (aorist active indicative) unto Israel a saviour, Jesus.”
This Davidic reference was used by Paul to demonstrate (to his Israeli audience) that the much-anticipated eternal Davidic reign (prophesied for centuries in the Old Testament) had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ and His glorious resurrection. Christ was indeed Israel’s anticipated “king” and “saviour.” Premillennialists are selective in their interpretation of passages like this. The reason being: they have to be! Passages like this negate their doctrine. Whilst they except Christ as Israel’s current “saviour,” they do not except Him was Israel’s current ruling “king.” However, this text exposes their objection. This passage proves that Christ is presented as already perfectly fulfilling the Davidic expectancy.
Paul adds in Acts 13:26-30, “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”
It is clear from this whole chapter that these misguided Jews still foolishly yearned for a coming Messiah who would one day reign upon a physical temporal earthly throne in Jerusalem, when He had in fact already come and rose to the heavenly Davidic throne. These earthly-minded Jews totally missed the hour of their visitation because of their false theology. They totally misunderstood who their Messiah was and what form His reign would look like. The sobering part of this text is, their misinterpretation of Scripture, and their false expectation, caused them to miss their Messiah. The fact is, He came to Israel and most Jews never even recognised Him for who He was. They had such a wrong perception of their own king.
Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers (speaking about the kingly Messianic reign that would usher from the seed of David), God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that [Psalm 2] he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise [His glorious rise to the throne], I will give you the sure mercies of David [quoting Isaiah 55:3]” (vv 32-34).
This is talking about the resurrection. Christ receiving "the sure mercies of David" was Christ rising up from the grave, ascending to heaven, taking the Davidic kingship, being enthroned on David's throne, installing Him in His rightful place of preeminence over Israel.
So, the promised Messiah has already come and taken the throne of David, although, evidently, not in the person or in the manner that the unbelieving Jews had carnally imagined. Paul here applies the Old Testament promises in Psalm 2 and Isaiah 55 to Christ’s death, burial and resurrection to the throne; and explains how such a prophecy has already been gloriously fulfilled. This is irrefutable evidence that these Old Testament prophecies relate to the intra-Advent period.
Colossians 1:18 describes Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn [Gr. prootótokos] from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
This passage, which is clearly referring to Christ’s physical resurrection, describes Christ’s status after triumphing over death and the grave as the prootótokos or put another way first begotten from the dead.
Last edited:
Where is a tribulation period mentioned after the rapture in any of these? The 7th trumpet is the end of time, the mystery of God is over and the general judgment. We are now into eternity.
Similar threads
