It's interesting Dougg, you try and explain why you believe what you do in a polite manner only to responded to by some so called 'Christians' who laugh at you when the real clown is what they see when they look in a mirror.
Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.
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David in NJ
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Satan can be quite polite - when he is twisting God's words = Just ask Eve from Genesis
You and @CrowCross mock God's words almost everyday!
Listen to these words
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.
But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light."
Yes, I try to treat everyone with respect.
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Nope. It's speaking of a resurrection not moving someone up to the clouds in the gathering.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
That's a resurrection to immortality. The gathering is not mentioned in this verse.
The other verse mentions the angels and both passages speak of the gathering. Angels do the gathering even if they are not mentioned in one passage.
No scripture teaches that. It only says that about the dead resurrecting and the others changing. How many time do I have to say the gathering is not mentioned in this verse?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
EQ you are welcome to state what you believe even if many other significant Scholars disagree.
It will all be explained to you on the way up B4 that 'tribulation' period starts, thanx again :)
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This is just avoidance of what was presented. If you want to address the things I mentioned, let me know.
Not the rapture: the dead shall be raised incorruptible
Not the rapture: and we shall be changed.
That is not what I was saying.
Return 1 is the pre-trib rapture then return two is the physical return in Rev 19.
In the TRIB, believers can lose their salvation eg :-
- Matt 7:22
- Matt 25:44
- Take the mark
Yet, PRE-trib eg RIGHT NOW, list the verses where Paul teaches a believer can become UNsaved & lose the HS seal c/- of what he does/does not do ?
WHEN you can COMPREHENSIVELY do that then your trib view will hold water, till then it's leaking fast.
It's like they want to go through the tribulation. They thinks it's gonna be a cake walk.
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You are changing the discussion from what we were discussing to something else. It's an avoidance known as a red herring fallacy. If you want to continue discussing what 1Co 15:52 says and does not say, let me know.
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They don't think that. They think the Pre-trib rapture will be a false rapture by the false christ and will be how the Apostasy happens. Most Pretribbers think the Apostasy is the rapture so it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.
If you get a chance or the urge, what are your thoughts on this article ?
When Will the Lord Return? - doctrine.org
Henceforth is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me on that day: and not to me only, but unto all who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4.8). Introduction All who love…
doctrine.org
WITHOUT DEROGATORY COMMENTS as seems prevalent among so many posters here, I am trying to understand why you believe what you do.
For this current 'age' that we are in, if you can CLEARLY SHOW that Paul teaches a believer can become UNsaved, UNjustified, UNsealed based on what they do or don't (as can happen in the trib,) then your trib view holds water, till then, it's leaking water faster than a Denmark dike.
..
When Will the Lord Return? - doctrine.org
Henceforth is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me on that day: and not to me only, but unto all who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4.8). Introduction All who love…
doctrine.org
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I'm not interested in discussing OSAS, nor will I ever be limited to only what Paul wrote.
OSAS based on ONGOING trust & faith in the 1 Cor 15:1-4 gospel UNIQUELY Gal 1:11-12 taught by Christ to Paul who then had to Gal 2:2 explain it to the 12.
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Your choosing to reject who Christ UNIQUELY chose to be your Rom 11:13 Apostle & Rom 15:16 Minister who at Gal 2:7-9 was confirmed by EVERYONE is the reason your trib view fails to hold water.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
You (and the post trib crowd also) are just looking at it all wrong.
Everything in scripture is not some event on a timeline. You are thinking as a man limited to worldly logic. God on the other hand--in all of scripture--is not, just part. And you are not fully considering what the rapture is--only half of the event is in this world. If you can understand that, then also understand that regardless of what you believe of the timing, it also effects all people. Now, with those two factors, connect the dots.
- Pretrib doesn't account for half of what is true of the event.
- Neither does Posttrib.
- Neither does Midtrib.
Okay, now for the rapture effecting all people. God told of what would occur with the dead--but he was speaking with people who barely understood this world, let alone His eternal portion of this two part event. Sooo...like stories of bread and lambs and sheep and water and armor and swords and bodies and figs--common on now--He spoke their language when describing--not a worldly event only...but an all-time, eternal event. He was speaking baby-talk to children! Which is not the level a mature person ought to imagine a biblical doctrine--heaven forbid! No, but what is needed is to understood beyond that "bread" and "lambs" level--and consider the higher thoughts of God.
In other words, the starting point of understanding is not men's imaginations and logic--but God's. From His perspective, the rapture brings every child of God from every time in all of history--to Him (to eternity), dead or alive...which just happens to occur simultaneously when everyone dies. Imagine that! Eternity commences when everyone dies--but--as Paul threw in "but, each one in his own order."
Woll, woll...what about all the verses that-- You mean those elementary, first words, spoken to children? Well--which one--which verse or passage doesn't fit into the rapture being half eternal in the presence of God, and only possibly occurring when "each one" dies?
Common everybody, time for everyone to get out of the kiddie pool! Which verse--which one?
Anyone?
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A TRIBULATION saint has the ability to become UNsaved by what they do or don't whereas today, now, currently that is not possible for a Paul age saint according to the teachings of Christ through Paul.
Here is the problem :-
If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?
Context makes a difference.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Definately the rapture and meeting in the clouds.
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