Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

[gpresdo]

Do you not believe Jesus about every person who is born of flesh?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were transported by the Spirit of God to new locations, dwelling places ON EARTH.
"It is appointed unto man....once to die" is an unchangeable Judgment from God. Enoch and Elijah DID NOT miss "their appointment".

They have not died...they were raptured. ...to a place. Remember even Christ said ..I go to prepare a place for you. That suggest...not heaven.?

 

[rwb]

They have not died...they were raptured. ...to a place. Remember even Christ said ..I go to prepare a place for you. That suggest...not heaven.?

The Father's house is in heaven. That's where Christ went to prepare a place for believers. But NONE could go there before Christ, through His cross and resurrection, made atonement for sin and defeated death.

Joh 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

None will be caught up (raptured) until Christ comes again. Notice too it says those believers who are still alive at Christ's coming again shall be caught up, not raptured because they are not dead. The living believers will be caught up with believers who have physically died resurrected to life again. There will be no resurrection of any believer to physical life again until the last trumpet sounds that time for this earth shall be no longer when Christ has come again with the spiritual body of believers God will bring with Him.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

They have not died...they were raptured. ...to a place. Remember even Christ said ..I go to prepare a place for you. That suggest...not heaven.?

I don't deny any of the scriptures that have been posted, but they don't support anything for the FALSE belief that Enoch and Elijah were taken/entered into heaven BEFORE the shedding of Christ's blood.
You have just denied the power of Christ's blood to remove sin. No man who is full of sin, prior to the first manifestation of Christ in the flesh, has ever gone to heaven.

When will all learn that the "rapture theory" is a clown show, that was fabricated by two of the most corrupt Theologins named Darby and Scofield.

Who was C. I. Scofield? | GotQuestions.org

Who was C. I. Scofield? What is C.I. Scofield most known for in church history? What influential books did C.I. Scofield write?

www.gotquestions.org

Who was John Nelson Darby? | GotQuestions.org

Who was John Nelson Darby? What is John Nelson Darby most known for in church history? What influential books did John Nelson Darby write?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Truth7t7]

Dead bodies because the church on earth is the body of Christ.

Your explanation above in trying to symbolize the two witnesses and their death isn't even hinted at in your response or scripture, I literally felt embarrassed when I read your statement above

It's sorta like once upon a time in the land of elves and fairy tales, grandma can I have my cookies and milk now, a bedtime story

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[TribulationSigns]

Enoch and Elijah.
It is appointed unto to man...once to die. They have not died.

LOL!

 

[TribulationSigns]

A laughing face and tears is your response to my post #75 above "Sad", just like your symbolic allegory in trying to remove the literal interpretation of scripture is "Sad" trying to push a completely false narrative regarding the Literal things that are seen in Rev Chapt 11 with symbolism

One Example: You think your going to take the words "Their Dead Bodies" and symbolize it into something other than literal dead bodies?

Another Example: You think your going to take the described literal watching world celebrating the death of the two witnesses, with this literal world exchanging literal gifts on this literal earth into something else through "Your" symbolic allegory?

Another Example: You think your going to take "The Great City" (Jerusalem) where Jesus was crucified and change it with your symbolic magical wand into something else?

Your Symbolic Interpretation Is Baloney, Malarkey, And Laughable!

Jesus Is The Lord

Oh, now we're finally getting somewhere! You gave an argument instead of simply yelling “BALONEY!” Progress!

But unfortunately, your argument defeats itself.

You keep repeating the word “literal” as though saying it often enough magically proves that Revelation 11 must be read literally. It doesn't.

Let's start with your “Great City = literal Jerusalem” claim.

Revelation 11:8 says:

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

Did you notice the word SPIRITUALLY?

God put it there. I didn't.

The city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Is Jerusalem literally Sodom? No. Is Jerusalem literally Egypt? No. Then congratulations—you've already entered the symbolism you claim I'm waving a “magical wand” to create.

And if “where our Lord was crucified” automatically forces the entire passage into wooden literalism, then please explain why God Himself immediately describes that city using spiritual identification.

Now let's try your method consistently.

You insist “dead bodies” MUST mean literal corpses because the words say “dead bodies.” Fine. Then when Revelation 11:5 says fire proceeds out of their mouths and devours their enemies, I assume you're expecting two men to become literal human flamethrowers?

And Revelation 11:6 says they have power to shut heaven, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. Yet Revelation has already identified the witnesses as “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4).

So which is it?

Are they literally two human beings, two olive trees, AND two candlesticks simultaneously?

Of course not.

You instinctively recognize symbolism when the text makes your wooden literalism impossible, but then suddenly demand literalism wherever it supports your predetermined interpretation like the false premillennial doctrine! That's not consistent hermeneutics.

And your “literal world exchanging literal gifts” argument proves nothing either. Revelation repeatedly portrays spiritual realities through earthly imagery. The presence of people rejoicing, giving gifts, seeing, dying, cities, beasts, candlesticks, earthquakes, fire, and numbers does not automatically establish that every element must be interpreted physically.

That's precisely what must be demonstrated from Scripture, not assumed.

So no, you haven't refuted my interpretation. You never did! You've simply announced:

“Literal! Literal! Literal!”

and apparently expected repetition to substitute for exegesis.

Calling my interpretation “baloney, malarkey, and laughable” still isn't an argument. You finally attempted one, but your own example contains the word “SPIRITUALLY,” while the same chapter calls the witnesses olive trees and candlesticks.

That's quite an unfortunate chapter to choose for arguing that symbolism is somehow illegitimate.

If you want to refute my interpretation, then stop pounding the table with the word “literal” and demonstrate from Scripture why these particular symbols must mean what you claim they mean.

Until then, you're not disproving symbolic interpretation.

You're merely proving that you don't like it.

Jesus is Lord indeed—and that's exactly why His Word, rather than your assumptions about literalism, gets the final say.
Praise the Lord!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your explanation above in trying to symbolize the two witnesses and their death isn't even hinted at in your response or scripture, I literally felt embarrassed when I read your statement above

It's sorta like once upon a time in the land of elves and fairy tales, grandma can I have my cookies and milk now, a bedtime story

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

There you go again. When you cannot actually refute @rwb's biblical argument, you reach for elves, fairy tales, cookies, milk, and ridicule. That may get you a laugh, but it doesn't get you anywhere near proving your interpretation.

And then signing it “In Love, Jesus Is The Lord” after mocking someone personally is quite a performance.

You claim his explanation is “not even hinted at in Scripture.” Then prove it from Scripture. That's how biblical discussion works.

Revelation itself tells us that it communicates through signs and symbolic imagery. Revelation 1:1 says Christ “signified” these things to John. Then Revelation 11 calls the witnesses “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4), and describes the Great City as “spiritually” called Sodom and Egypt (Rev. 11:8).

So symbolism isn't something he invented. It's sitting right there in the chapter you're arguing about.

The real question is what those symbols represent, and that must be determined by comparing Scripture with Scripture. That is something you failed to do!

If you believe the interpretation is wrong, demonstrate where the biblical connections fail. Explain the olive trees. Explain the candlesticks. Explain why God says “spiritually.” Explain from Scripture why their death absolutely must mean two literal corpses rather than simply announcing that anything symbolic is a “fairy tale.”

Because so far your argument amounts to:

“I interpret it literally; therefore any symbolic interpretation is ridiculous.”

That's circular reasoning, not exegesis.

And here's the irony: you ridicule symbolic interpretation while discussing the Book of Revelation—a book filled with beasts, horns, dragons, lampstands, stars, seals, trumpets, a woman clothed with the sun, and a Lamb.

Perhaps put Grandma's cookies and milk down for a moment and actually deal with the Scriptures presented to you.

Mockery doesn't establish doctrine.

Scripture does.

Jesus is Lord indeed. So let His Word settle the argument rather than your sarcasm.