Two Witnesses - A Biblical Perspective

[gpresdo]

Do you not believe Jesus about every person who is born of flesh?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were transported by the Spirit of God to new locations, dwelling places ON EARTH.
"It is appointed unto man....once to die" is an unchangeable Judgment from God. Enoch and Elijah DID NOT miss "their appointment".

They have not died...they were raptured. ...to a place. Remember even Christ said ..I go to prepare a place for you. That suggest...not heaven.?

 

[rwb]

They have not died...they were raptured. ...to a place. Remember even Christ said ..I go to prepare a place for you. That suggest...not heaven.?

The Father's house is in heaven. That's where Christ went to prepare a place for believers. But NONE could go there before Christ, through His cross and resurrection, made atonement for sin and defeated death.

Joh 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

None will be caught up (raptured) until Christ comes again. Notice too it says those believers who are still alive at Christ's coming again shall be caught up, not raptured because they are not dead. The living believers will be caught up with believers who have physically died resurrected to life again. There will be no resurrection of any believer to physical life again until the last trumpet sounds that time for this earth shall be no longer when Christ has come again with the spiritual body of believers God will bring with Him.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

They have not died...they were raptured. ...to a place. Remember even Christ said ..I go to prepare a place for you. That suggest...not heaven.?

I don't deny any of the scriptures that have been posted, but they don't support anything for the FALSE belief that Enoch and Elijah were taken/entered into heaven BEFORE the shedding of Christ's blood.
You have just denied the power of Christ's blood to remove sin. No man who is full of sin, prior to the first manifestation of Christ in the flesh, has ever gone to heaven.

When will all learn that the "rapture theory" is a clown show, that was fabricated by two of the most corrupt Theologins named Darby and Scofield.

Who was C. I. Scofield? | GotQuestions.org

Who was C. I. Scofield? What is C.I. Scofield most known for in church history? What influential books did C.I. Scofield write?

www.gotquestions.org

Who was John Nelson Darby? | GotQuestions.org

Who was John Nelson Darby? What is John Nelson Darby most known for in church history? What influential books did John Nelson Darby write?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Truth7t7]

Dead bodies because the church on earth is the body of Christ.

Your explanation above in trying to symbolize the two witnesses and their death isn't even hinted at in your response or scripture, I literally felt embarrassed when I read your statement above

It's sorta like once upon a time in the land of elves and fairy tales, grandma can I have my cookies and milk now, a bedtime story

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[TribulationSigns]

Enoch and Elijah.
It is appointed unto to man...once to die. They have not died.

LOL!

 

[TribulationSigns]

A laughing face and tears is your response to my post #75 above "Sad", just like your symbolic allegory in trying to remove the literal interpretation of scripture is "Sad" trying to push a completely false narrative regarding the Literal things that are seen in Rev Chapt 11 with symbolism

One Example: You think your going to take the words "Their Dead Bodies" and symbolize it into something other than literal dead bodies?

Another Example: You think your going to take the described literal watching world celebrating the death of the two witnesses, with this literal world exchanging literal gifts on this literal earth into something else through "Your" symbolic allegory?

Another Example: You think your going to take "The Great City" (Jerusalem) where Jesus was crucified and change it with your symbolic magical wand into something else?

Your Symbolic Interpretation Is Baloney, Malarkey, And Laughable!

Jesus Is The Lord

Oh, now we're finally getting somewhere! You gave an argument instead of simply yelling “BALONEY!” Progress!

But unfortunately, your argument defeats itself.

You keep repeating the word “literal” as though saying it often enough magically proves that Revelation 11 must be read literally. It doesn't.

Let's start with your “Great City = literal Jerusalem” claim.

Revelation 11:8 says:

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

Did you notice the word SPIRITUALLY?

God put it there. I didn't.

The city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Is Jerusalem literally Sodom? No. Is Jerusalem literally Egypt? No. Then congratulations—you've already entered the symbolism you claim I'm waving a “magical wand” to create.

And if “where our Lord was crucified” automatically forces the entire passage into wooden literalism, then please explain why God Himself immediately describes that city using spiritual identification.

Now let's try your method consistently.

You insist “dead bodies” MUST mean literal corpses because the words say “dead bodies.” Fine. Then when Revelation 11:5 says fire proceeds out of their mouths and devours their enemies, I assume you're expecting two men to become literal human flamethrowers?

And Revelation 11:6 says they have power to shut heaven, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues. Yet Revelation has already identified the witnesses as “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4).

So which is it?

Are they literally two human beings, two olive trees, AND two candlesticks simultaneously?

Of course not.

You instinctively recognize symbolism when the text makes your wooden literalism impossible, but then suddenly demand literalism wherever it supports your predetermined interpretation like the false premillennial doctrine! That's not consistent hermeneutics.

And your “literal world exchanging literal gifts” argument proves nothing either. Revelation repeatedly portrays spiritual realities through earthly imagery. The presence of people rejoicing, giving gifts, seeing, dying, cities, beasts, candlesticks, earthquakes, fire, and numbers does not automatically establish that every element must be interpreted physically.

That's precisely what must be demonstrated from Scripture, not assumed.

So no, you haven't refuted my interpretation. You never did! You've simply announced:

“Literal! Literal! Literal!”

and apparently expected repetition to substitute for exegesis.

Calling my interpretation “baloney, malarkey, and laughable” still isn't an argument. You finally attempted one, but your own example contains the word “SPIRITUALLY,” while the same chapter calls the witnesses olive trees and candlesticks.

That's quite an unfortunate chapter to choose for arguing that symbolism is somehow illegitimate.

If you want to refute my interpretation, then stop pounding the table with the word “literal” and demonstrate from Scripture why these particular symbols must mean what you claim they mean.

Until then, you're not disproving symbolic interpretation.

You're merely proving that you don't like it.

Jesus is Lord indeed—and that's exactly why His Word, rather than your assumptions about literalism, gets the final say.
Praise the Lord!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your explanation above in trying to symbolize the two witnesses and their death isn't even hinted at in your response or scripture, I literally felt embarrassed when I read your statement above

It's sorta like once upon a time in the land of elves and fairy tales, grandma can I have my cookies and milk now, a bedtime story

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

There you go again. When you cannot actually refute @rwb's biblical argument, you reach for elves, fairy tales, cookies, milk, and ridicule. That may get you a laugh, but it doesn't get you anywhere near proving your interpretation.

And then signing it “In Love, Jesus Is The Lord” after mocking someone personally is quite a performance.

You claim his explanation is “not even hinted at in Scripture.” Then prove it from Scripture. That's how biblical discussion works.

Revelation itself tells us that it communicates through signs and symbolic imagery. Revelation 1:1 says Christ “signified” these things to John. Then Revelation 11 calls the witnesses “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4), and describes the Great City as “spiritually” called Sodom and Egypt (Rev. 11:8).

So symbolism isn't something he invented. It's sitting right there in the chapter you're arguing about.

The real question is what those symbols represent, and that must be determined by comparing Scripture with Scripture. That is something you failed to do!

If you believe the interpretation is wrong, demonstrate where the biblical connections fail. Explain the olive trees. Explain the candlesticks. Explain why God says “spiritually.” Explain from Scripture why their death absolutely must mean two literal corpses rather than simply announcing that anything symbolic is a “fairy tale.”

Because so far your argument amounts to:

“I interpret it literally; therefore any symbolic interpretation is ridiculous.”

That's circular reasoning, not exegesis.

And here's the irony: you ridicule symbolic interpretation while discussing the Book of Revelation—a book filled with beasts, horns, dragons, lampstands, stars, seals, trumpets, a woman clothed with the sun, and a Lamb.

Perhaps put Grandma's cookies and milk down for a moment and actually deal with the Scriptures presented to you.

Mockery doesn't establish doctrine.

Scripture does.

Jesus is Lord indeed. So let His Word settle the argument rather than your sarcasm.

 

[Truth7t7]

Oh, now we're finally getting somewhere! You gave an argument instead of simply yelling “BALONEY!” Progress!

But unfortunately, your argument defeats itself.

You keep repeating the word “literal” as though saying it often enough magically proves that Revelation 11 must be read literally. It doesn't.

Let's start with your “Great City = literal Jerusalem” claim.

Revelation 11:8 says:

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

Did you notice the word SPIRITUALLY?

God put it there. I didn't.

The city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Is Jerusalem literally Sodom? No. Is Jerusalem literally Egypt? No. Then congratulations—you've already entered the symbolism you claim I'm waving a “magical wand” to create.

And if “where our Lord was crucified” automatically forces the entire passage into wooden literalism, then please explain why God Himself immediately describes that city using spiritual identification.

Now let's try your method consistently.

God's words are doing nothing more than teaching that the "Spiritual Condition" of Jerusalem will be like Sodom and Egypt, then the city is "Literally" identified as earthly Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified, your bag of tricks is empty

You insist “dead bodies” MUST mean literal corpses because the words say “dead bodies.” Fine. Then when Revelation 11:5 says fire proceeds out of their mouths and devours their enemies, I assume you're expecting two men to become literal human flamethrowers?

You've clearly been shown "Several Times" that the literal words spoken by Elijah resulted in literal fire coming down from heaven, this represents fire coming out of their mouths, symbolic speech to literal fire

2 Kings 1:9-12KJV
9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.
10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.
12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

And Revelation 11:6 says they have power to shut heaven, turn waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues.

Yes the two witnesses will bring literal plagues upon this literal world, a complete replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Yet Revelation has already identified the witnesses as “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks” (Rev. 11:4).

So which is it?

Are they literally two human beings, two olive trees, AND two candlesticks simultaneously?

Of course not.

You instinctively recognize symbolism when the text makes your wooden literalism impossible, but then suddenly demand literalism wherever it supports your predetermined interpretation like the false premillennial doctrine! That's not consistent hermeneutics.

You've clearly been shown "Several Times" that the parallel reading of Revelation 11:3-4 is Zechariah 4:11-14, and the scripture interprets itself

Zechariah 4:14 gives the very clear interpretation of olive trees and candlesticks as being (The Two Annointed Ones) are olive trees and candle sticks anointed "No"

Revelation Chapter 11 goes into great detail in showing that the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die

Revelation 11:3-4KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

And your “literal world exchanging literal gifts” argument proves nothing either. Revelation repeatedly portrays spiritual realities through earthly imagery. The presence of people rejoicing, giving gifts, seeing, dying, cities, beasts, candlesticks, earthquakes, fire, and numbers does not automatically establish that every element must be interpreted physically.

That's precisely what must be demonstrated from Scripture, not assumed.

Yes all that mentioned above is future and literal, it will take place upon this literal earth, your symbolic magic wand and bag of tricks are "Empty"

So no, you haven't refuted my interpretation. You never did! You've simply announced:

Your claims and opinions are Baloney, Malarkey, and honestly "Laughable"!

“Literal! Literal! Literal!”

and apparently expected repetition to substitute for exegesis.

Calling my interpretation “baloney, malarkey, and laughable” still isn't an argument.

Your claims, opinions, magic wand, and bag of tricks are "Empty" they're Baloney, Malarkey, and Laughable

You finally attempted one, but your own example contains the word “SPIRITUALLY,” while the same chapter calls the witnesses olive trees and candlesticks.

That's quite an unfortunate chapter to choose for arguing that symbolism is somehow illegitimate.

I never stated once that Revelation Chapter 11 doesn't contain symbolism, you've been shown "Clearly" in just one example that scripture interprets itself in the case of two olive trees and candlesticks as seen above Zechariah 4:14 (These Are The Two Annointed Ones) Rev Chap 11 even goes further explaining that they will have literal physical bodies that die

If you want to refute my interpretation, then stop pounding the table with the word “literal” and demonstrate from Scripture why these particular symbols must mean what you claim they mean.

Revelation Chapter 11 coupled with Zechariah 4:11-14 is self explanatory, and "Their Dead Bodies" "A City Where Jesus Was Crucified" "A World Celebration" "Gifts Being Exchanged" these aren't "Symbols" as you falsely claim, they're (Future, Literal, And Unfulfilled)

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[TribulationSigns]

You've clearly been shown "Several Times" that the parallel reading of Revelation 11:3-4 is Zechariah 4:11-14, and the scripture interprets itself

Zechariah 4:14 gives the very clear interpretation of olive trees and candlesticks as being (The Two Annointed Ones) are olive trees and candle sticks anointed "No"

Revelation Chapter 11 goes into great detail in showing that the (Two Witnesses) have literal physical bodies that die

Ah, so the bag of tricks is “empty,” yet you keep having to declare everything literal instead of proving it literal.

Let's deal with your argument rather than your repeated “baloney, malarkey, laughable” routine where you already has been refuted anyway.

You quote Zechariah 4:14:

“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Wonderful. I agree that Revelation 11 deliberately draws from Zechariah 4.

But where does Zechariah 4:14 say:

“These are two literal men who will appear thousands of years in the future, perform literal plagues, die as two literal corpses in geographical Jerusalem, and be watched by the entire literal world”?

It doesn't.

You quietly inserted all of that yourself.

Zechariah explains the symbolic imagery—the olive trees are the “anointed ones.” But identifying one symbol does not prove your entire futuristic-literal interpretation of Revelation 11.

And notice something else you just admitted.

You wrote concerning the fire:

“symbolic speech to literal fire.”

Thank you!

So now you are interpreting Revelation 11 symbolically.

You don't believe literal flames physically shoot from directly their mouths? You interpret the mouth imagery through another Scripture. That's precisely the principle I've been arguing for: compare spiritual things with spiritual and allow Scripture to interpret its own imagery.

Your disagreement with me therefore isn't whether Revelation 11 contains symbolism anymore. You've conceded that.

The disagreement is what the symbols signify.

Now let's examine your Elijah argument.

Revelation 11:5 says:

“fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.”

But in 2 Kings 1, fire did NOT proceed out of Elijah's mouth, did it?

Elijah spoke, and fire came down from heaven. Not his mouth.

Those are NOT the same words or physical actions.

You are therefore already interpreting Revelation's imagery through an Old Testament pattern rather than demanding a woodenly literal fulfillment of the actual sentence.

Yet when I do the same kind of Scripture-with-Scripture interpretation elsewhere in the chapter, suddenly you pull out your “symbolic magic wand” accusation.

That's inconsistent.

Then you say the witnesses will be a “complete replay of Moses/Aaron.”

Really? LOL!!!

Please quote Revelation 11 where God identifies the Two Witnesses as Moses and Aaron anyway.

Clearly, you can't.

That's another inference you've brought to the passage.

And there is an even bigger problem with your argument about the Great City.

You keep saying:

“A City Where Jesus Was Crucified!”

while repeatedly stepping over the inspired word immediately preceding the description:

“which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt.” — Revelation 11:8

Apparently when God says SPIRITUALLY, your solution is to tell everyone else to read it literally. Thanks for a good laugh.

“Where also our Lord was crucified” does not erase the word spiritually. The question is what God is communicating through the whole description.

Nor does merely saying “dead bodies” prove your interpretation. Revelation uses death imagery elsewhere in ways that require interpretation. The issue isn't whether the words “dead bodies” appear. They obviously do. The question is what those bodies signify within John's apocalyptic vision.

You need to establish that from Scripture instead of repeatedly announcing:

Literal earth!
Literal bodies!
Literal Jerusalem!
Literal gifts!
Literal world!

Repeating “literal” five times does not turn an assumption into exegesis.

And here's what you still haven't demonstrated:

You haven't established from Revelation 11 that the witnesses are two future individual men.

You haven't established that “the Great City” must be geographical Jerusalem despite its explicitly spiritual description.

You haven't established that the witnesses' death must represent exactly what you claim rather than the defeat of their testimony.

And Zechariah 4:14 certainly doesn't establish any of those things merely by saying “two anointed ones.”

So perhaps retire the “baloney,” “malarkey,” “magic wand,” and “bag of tricks” routine and bring something much more useful:

Scripture that actually proves your conclusions.

Because ironically, your latest response conceded my fundamental point: when Revelation says fire comes “out of their mouth,” even YOU don't take the words literally.

Your own interpretation requires symbolism.

So the magic wand apparently wasn't empty after all.

You were holding it.

Jesus is Lord indeed. Therefore His Word—not how many times either of us can type the word “literal”—must determine the meaning.

Selah!

 

[Truth7t7]

Ah, so the bag of tricks is “empty,” yet you keep having to declare everything literal instead of proving it literal.

Yes your magic wand and bag of tricks is empty, the very scripture in Revelation Chapter 11 proves it to be literal

Just because you want to tag it as symbolic with claims that are laughable doesn't make it symbolic, you're not going to symbolize (Their Dead Bodies) that represent literal physical bodies on this earth, scripture teaches that these bodies die and lay in a future Jerusalem street as a literal world watches in celebration

Your not going to symbolize a steet in a city where Jesus was crucified, it's literally Jerusalem on this earth, your claims otherwise are Laughable Malarkey, its that simple

Let's deal with your argument rather than your repeated “baloney, malarkey, laughable” routine where you already has been refuted anyway.

You quote Zechariah 4:14:

“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Wonderful. I agree that Revelation 11 deliberately draws from Zechariah 4.

But where does Zechariah 4:14 say:

“These are two literal men who will appear thousands of years in the future, perform literal plagues, die as two literal corpses in geographical Jerusalem, and be watched by the entire literal world”?

It doesn't.

You quietly inserted all of that yourself.

Zechariah explains the symbolic imagery—the olive trees are the “anointed ones.” But identifying one symbol does not prove your entire futuristic-literal interpretation of Revelation 11.

The two anointed ones aren't symbols as you continue in this false claim, they were symbolic in olive trees and candle sticks, then the interpretation was given (These Are The Two Anointed Ones) and once again are olive trees and candle sticks anointed "No" and Revelation Chapter 11 clearly explains their anointing/power

And notice something else you just admitted.

You wrote concerning the fire:

“symbolic speech to literal fire.”

Thank you!

So now you are interpreting Revelation 11 symbolically.

You don't believe literal flames physically shoot from directly their mouths? You interpret the mouth imagery through another Scripture. That's precisely the principle I've been arguing for: compare spiritual things with spiritual and allow Scripture to interpret its own imagery.

Your disagreement with me therefore isn't whether Revelation 11 contains symbolism anymore. You've conceded that.

The disagreement is what the symbols signify.

I never stated once that Rev 11 didn't contain symbolism, that's your false claim

Yes the two witnesses will have fire come from their mouths, their very words speaking fire will actually happen in the future, just as Elijah's words spoken brought literal fire on this earth killing 102 men, this is about the 3rd time I have repeated myself on this subject, your not showing something new, at no time have I taught nor do I believe that literal fire comes from their mouths, it will be by their spoken words from their mouths as explained several times

Now let's examine your Elijah argument.

Revelation 11:5 says:

“fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.”

But in 2 Kings 1, fire did NOT proceed out of Elijah's mouth, did it?

Elijah spoke, and fire came down from heaven. Not his mouth.

Those are NOT the same words or physical actions.

You are therefore already interpreting Revelation's imagery through an Old Testament pattern rather than demanding a woodenly literal fulfillment of the actual sentence.

Yet when I do the same kind of Scripture-with-Scripture interpretation elsewhere in the chapter, suddenly you pull out your “symbolic magic wand” accusation.

That's inconsistent.

Elijah's words spoken brought literal fire down from heaven, this example applies to Revelation 11:5

Revelation 11:5KJV
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Then you say the witnesses will be a “complete replay of Moses/Aaron.”

Really? LOL!!!

Please quote Revelation 11 where God identifies the Two Witnesses as Moses and Aaron anyway.

Clearly, you can't.

That's another inference you've brought to the passage.

Yes the future (Two Witnesses) will have all power over plagues it will be like a complete replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, this is an example, the plagues seen will be an Elijah type of Prophet, this is my "Opinion" scripture doesn't clearly identify the future prophets

And there is an even bigger problem with your argument about the Great City.

You keep saying:

“A City Where Jesus Was Crucified!”

while repeatedly stepping over the inspired word immediately preceding the description:

“which SPIRITUALLY is called Sodom and Egypt.” — Revelation 11:8

Apparently when God says SPIRITUALLY, your solution is to tell everyone else to read it literally. Thanks for a good laugh.

“Where also our Lord was crucified” does not erase the word spiritually. The question is what God is communicating through the whole description.

As I stated once and here it is again, the scripture teaches that the "Spiritual Condition" of a "Future Jerusalem" will be like Sodom and Egypt stop trying to bend and twist my words "Bad"!

The scripture teaches that this great city will be where Jesus was literally crucified upon this literal earth (Jerusalem)

A "spiritual condition" and a "literal city identified" is two completely different subjects, stop bending and twisting scripture to suit your needs

Nor does merely saying “dead bodies” prove your interpretation. Revelation uses death imagery elsewhere in ways that require interpretation. The issue isn't whether the words “dead bodies” appear. They obviously do. The question is what those bodies signify within John's apocalyptic vision.

The scripture in the very context of Rev Chap 11 teaches that (Their Dead Bodies) is literal and physical bodies that lay in a literal Jerusalem street as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths, it teaches that these literal dead bodies will be raised to heaven before a literal world watching (Future, Literal, Unfulfilled)

You need to establish that from Scripture instead of repeatedly announcing:

Literal earth!
Literal bodies!
Literal Jerusalem!
Literal gifts!
Literal world!

Repeating “literal” five times does not turn an assumption into exegesis.

And here's what you still haven't demonstrated:

You haven't established from Revelation 11 that the witnesses are two future individual men.

As stated above, the scripture in Rev Chap 11 teaches of literal physical bodies, it's that simple

You haven't established that “the Great City” must be geographical Jerusalem despite its explicitly spiritual description.

Scripture clearly teaches that the great city is where Jesus was Crucified, and that took place upon this literal earth in Jerusalem, your not going to symbolize the simple truth in scripture to suit your needs, your magic wand and bag of tricks are empty and don't forget it

You haven't established that the witnesses' death must represent exactly what you claim rather than the defeat of their testimony.

You desperate attempts to remove literal physical bodies that die and are raised from the dead before a watching world is silenced in your false claim their testimony is defeated Baloney, Malarkey, Laughable

And Zechariah 4:14 certainly doesn't establish any of those things merely by saying “two anointed ones.”

It establishes that the two olive trees and candle sticks are (The Two Anointed One) and they will be anointed with power to bring all plagues upon this literal earth as often as they will "Literally" a replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt or possibly that is symbolic to you also, Big Smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes your magic wand and bag of tricks is empty, the very scripture in Revelation Chapter 11 proves it to be literal

Same old wooden-literalist claim. Let me know when you finally find your two human flamethrowers standing in Jerusalem, literally shooting fire out of their mouths. Until then, Revelation’s symbolic language remains symbolic.

 

[Truth7t7]

Same old wooden-literalist claim. Let me know when you finally find your two human flamethrowers standing in Jerusalem, literally shooting fire out of their mouths. Until then, Revelation’s symbolic language remains symbolic.

You run away in diversion and mis-representation "Why"?

Your suggestion that all of Revelation Chapter 11 is symbolic is "False"

Revelation Chapter 11 is Future, the (Two Witnesses) will have literal bodies that are killed and they literally die on this earth, they will lay dead in a literal Jerusalem street, a literal world will watch their dead bodies, they will exchange literal gifts on this earth in celebration of their deaths, after 3.5 literal days they will be raised from the dead and ascend into heaven while literal humans on this earth watch this future event (Future, Literal, Unfulfilled)

Your claim I'm looking for future human flamethrowers in Jerusalem is 100% "False" and a clear mis-representation of my written words as seen below "Bad"!

"Quote Truth7t7 Post #90"
Yes the two witnesses will have fire come from their mouths, their very words speaking fire will actually happen in the future, just as Elijah's words spoken brought literal fire on this earth killing 102 men, this is about the 3rd time I have repeated myself on this subject, your not showing something new, at no time have I taught nor do I believe that literal fire comes from their mouths, it will be by their spoken words from their mouths as explained several times

 

[TribulationSigns]

You run away in diversion and mis-representation "Why"?

Your suggestion that all of Revelation Chapter 11 is symbolic is "False"

Revelation Chapter 11 is Future, the (Two Witnesses) will have literal bodies that are killed and they literally die on this earth, they will lay dead in a literal Jerusalem street, a literal world will watch their dead bodies, they will exchange literal gifts on this earth in celebration of their deaths, after 3.5 literal days they will be raised from the dead and ascend into heaven while literal humans on this earth watch this future event (Future, Literal, Unfulfilled)

Your claim I'm looking for future human flamethrowers in Jerusalem is 100% "False" and a clear mis-representation of my written words as seen below "Bad"!

"Quote Truth7t7 Post #90"
Yes the two witnesses will have fire come from their mouths, their very words speaking fire will actually happen in the future, just as Elijah's words spoken brought literal fire on this earth killing 102 men, this is about the 3rd time I have repeated myself on this subject, your not showing something new, at no time have I taught nor do I believe that literal fire comes from their mouths, it will be by their spoken words from their mouths as explained several times

My goodness. You STILL don't understand the argument.

I am not “running away,” and I never argued that every single word in Revelation 11 is symbolic. I have repeatedly explained who the Two Witnesses represent, the nature of their prophetic testimony, how the beast kills their testimony, what their death signifies, and how the Spirit causes them to stand again and testify—this time in connection with judgment.

Simply responding:

“Literal bodies! Literal Jerusalem! Literal world! Literal gifts! Literal 3½ days!”

doesn't refute any of that.

You're merely repeating your conclusion.

And now you've exposed a serious problem with your fire argument.

You accuse me of misrepresenting you because you DON'T believe literal fire physically shoots out of their mouths.

Excellent. Then read Revelation 11:5 again:

“And if any man will hurt them, FIRE PROCEEDETH OUT OF THEIR MOUTH, and devoureth their enemies.”

If your rule is that “dead bodies” must mean literal dead bodies because that's what the text literally says, then why doesn't “fire proceedeth out of their mouth” mean exactly what it literally says?

Suddenly you abandon your own literalism and tell us the mouth represents their spoken words, while the actual fire comes from somewhere else.

That's interpretation of symbolic imagery!

Worse, your appeal to Elijah does NOT say what you're claiming.

Read 2 Kings 1:10 carefully:

“If I be a man of God, then let fire COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN…”

And what happened?

“And there came down FIRE FROM HEAVEN.”

Elijah did NOT speak fire into existence.

Fire did NOT proceed from Elijah's mouth.

Elijah did NOT possess some supernatural ability whereby his spoken words themselves produced fire.

He challenged them: “If I be a man of God…” and called upon GOD to vindicate him. GOD sent the fire FROM HEAVEN.

Yet Revelation 11:5 deliberately places the fire:

“OUT OF THEIR MOUTH.”

So your supposed parallel actually demonstrates the difference.

2 Kings:

Elijah's mouth → request/declaration → GOD sends fire FROM HEAVEN.

Revelation 11:

Witnesses' mouths → FIRE proceeds OUT OF THEIR MOUTH.

Those are not the same description.

You are the one who decided that Revelation's “fire out of their mouth” means their words somehow result in literal fire falling from heaven. Revelation 11 never says that.

Ironically, that's YOUR symbolic interpretation!

So please stop accusing everyone else of waving a “symbolic magic wand” while you're standing there waving one yourself.

And you still haven't answered the central issue.

You keep telling us WHAT you believe will happen, but you aren't demonstrating WHY Revelation requires your interpretation.

I have explained my interpretation:

Two Witnesses = the faithful witnessing Church.

Their prophetic power = the Holy Spirit empowering God's Word.

Their testimony = the testimony being silenced when the beast overcomes their witness within the apostate external church.

Their bodies lying exposed = The truthful testimony silenced.

The short 3½-day period = the brief period in which their faithful testimony is silenced.

The Spirit entering them = God reviving His witnesses.

Standing upon their feet = God's people becoming active witnesses again, this time in judgment, not salvation.

Their subsequent testimony = no longer the worldwide Gospel work of gathering the Elect, but warning of approaching judgment and separation from the apostate congregation.

You may disagree with that interpretation. Fine.

Then REFUTE IT FROM SCRIPTURE.

Don't merely respond:

“Nope! Future! Literal! Unfulfilled!”

That's assertion, not refutation.

And please stop claiming that your interpretation is simply “what the text literally says,” because you just admitted that when Revelation says FIRE COMES OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS, you DON'T believe fire literally comes out of their mouths.

Apparently Revelation can use symbolic language after all.

Selah

 

[Truth7t7]

I have explained my interpretation:

Yes you have explained your opinion without one scripture reference below to support your claims, Lol!

Two Witnesses = the faithful witnessing Church.

The two witnesses represent two future literal prophets in physical bodies that die, they will torment a future evil world through literal plagues upon this earth Rev 11:3-18KJV

Their prophetic power = the Holy Spirit empowering God's Word.

Their power will be from God in bringing future literal plagues upon this literal earth Rev 11:3-18KJV

Their testimony = the testimony being silenced when the beast overcomes their witness within the apostate external church.

Their testimony will end after 1260 literal days, when the beast kills them and their physical dead bodies will lay in a literal Jerusalem street Rev 11:3-18KJV

Their bodies lying exposed = The truthful testimony silenced.

Their bodies lying exposed is a direct action of the evil world not suffering their literal dead bodies to be buried in graves Rev 11:3-18KJV

The short 3½-day period = the brief period in which their faithful testimony is silenced.

Yes when the literal physical prophets are dead for 3.5 days they will be silenced Rev 11:3-18KJV

The Spirit entering them = God reviving His witnesses.

God's Spirit will enter the two witnesses as they are raised from the dead, they will literally stand on their physical feet and ascend into heaven as a literal world watches Rev 11:3-18KJV

Standing upon their feet = God's people becoming active witnesses again, this time in judgment, not salvation.

The two prophets will be raised from the dead and stand upon their feet, they will ascend up to heaven as a literal world on earth watches Rev 11:3-18KJV

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 11:3-18KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[rwb]

The two witnesses represent two future literal prophets in physical bodies that die, they will torment a future evil world through literal plagues upon this earth Rev 11:3-18KJV

Will these two literal prophets in physical bodies be literally killed by the literal beast that ascends out of the literal bottomless pit making war with them, overcoming and literally killing them?

Revelation 11:7 (KJV) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Inconsistency is the mother of biblical error. If you're going to argue this chapter through literal/physical realities, then remain consistent and insist the beast, and bottomless pit are also literal! Regardless of how totally absurd that would be.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Will these two literal prophets in physical bodies be literally killed by the literal beast that ascends out of the literal bottomless pit making war with them, overcoming and literally killing them?

Revelation 11:7 (KJV) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Inconsistency is the mother of biblical error. If you're going to argue this chapter through literal/physical realities, then remain consistent and insist the beast, and bottomless pit are also literal! Regardless of how totally absurd that would be.

Amen!

 

[gpresdo]

has ever seen God and if we diod we mus surely die. I don't deny any of the scriptures that have been posted, but they don't support anything for the FALSE belief that Enoch and Elijah were taken/entered into heaven BEFORE the shedding of Christ's blood.
You have just denied the power of Christ's blood to remove sin. No man who is full of sin, prior to the first manifestation of Christ in the flesh, has ever gone to heaven.

When will all learn that the "rapture theory" is a clown show, that was fabricated by two of the most corrupt Theologins named Darby and Scofield.

Who was C. I. Scofield? | GotQuestions.org

Who was C. I. Scofield? What is C.I. Scofield most known for in church history? What influential books did C.I. Scofield write?

www.gotquestions.org

Who was John Nelson Darby? | GotQuestions.org

Who was John Nelson Darby? What is John Nelson Darby most known for in church history? What influential books did John Nelson Darby write?

www.gotquestions.org

I am not sure that the interpreters ..meant Heaven. Christ said..."i go to prepare a place for you". Heaven existed then. God is in Heaven...no one has seen God and if we did...we must surely die. Even after the Great white Throne judgement...this must be answered. Scriptures tell us that Christ sits at the right hand of God and is our advocate. It doesnt say that he does not have other plases of domain.

 

[gpresdo]

Same old wooden-literalist claim. Let me know when you finally find your two human flamethrowers standing in Jerusalem, literally shooting fire out of their mouths. Until then, Revelation’s symbolic language remains symbolic.

Symbolic of what?

 

[gpresdo]

LOL!

Very intelligent post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Very intelligent post.

Thank you! The Two Witnesses will not be Enoch and Elijah. Read my OP for biblical answer.