Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[jeffweeder]

I'm still waiting for the connect the dots post-trib view. So far...crickets.

Our resurrection and change takes place on the last day, not before

John 6:40
For this is My Father’s will and purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him [as Savior] will have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha replied, “I know that he will rise [from the dead] in the resurrection on the last day.”

Job 14: 12-14

So man lies down and does not rise [again].
Until the heavens are no longer,
The dead will not awake nor be raised from their sleep.

“If a man dies, will he live again?
I will wait all the days of my struggle
Until my change and release will come.



Dots connection 1,
Last day Resurrection = heavens passing away.



The ungodly are raised on the last day as well
John 12:48
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


Dots connection 2,
Our bodily Glorification and the eternal judgment of the unsaved occur when Jesus comes again to raise us the last day.


Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

Gen 6
12 God looked on the earth and saw how debased and degenerate it was, for all humanity had corrupted their way on the earth and lost their true direction.

13 God said to Noah, “I intend to make an end of all that lives, for through men the land is filled with violence; and behold, I am about to destroy them together with the land.

Saved from wrath after the tribulation.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

 

[David in NJ]

Okay, but this is a non-answer to my question to you, David. I mean they'll say the same right back to you or anyone else who says this of them. You said they (pre-tribbers) "have an agenda." And in case you can't tell... <chuckles> ...that's really a rhetorical question... <smile> ...it's not.


Yeah, we would all say that. And, it's true. Grace and peace to you.

The agenda did not originate with today's pre-tibbers.

What do you think that agenda is?

The doctrine originated as a seed that was planted in the churches to deceive & divide.

I mean, if it's to try to get you to believe and/or understand God's Word as they do, then how is that different from you or anyone else here?

EXACTLY
Mission accomplished from the enemy.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, they can (connect the dots), and they do, but the issue is what they think those "dots" are and how they "connect." If the premise(s) is (are) wrong... Yeah, that's the issue.

Grace and peace to you.

You see @rebuilder 454 ...nothing but claims. No dots connected by this fellow.

 

[CrowCross]

Dots connection 2,
Our bodily Glorification and the eternal judgment of the unsaved occur when Jesus comes again to raise us the last day.


Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

Thanks for that. You have helped confirm the pre-trib rapture of the church with the Noah account.
"38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark".......at the end of the tribulation it will not be the "good time" like mentioned here.

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks for that. You have helped confirm the pre-trib rapture of the church with the Noah account.
"38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark".......at the end of the tribulation it will not be the "good time" like mentioned here.

Noah lived during the greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen and thus why GOD destroyed every living thing!!!

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient,
when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Our resurrection and change takes place on the last day, not before

John 6:40
For this is My Father’s will and purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him [as Savior] will have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha replied, “I know that he will rise [from the dead] in the resurrection on the last day.”

Job 14: 12-14

So man lies down and does not rise [again].
Until the heavens are no longer,
The dead will not awake nor be raised from their sleep.

“If a man dies, will he live again?
I will wait all the days of my struggle
Until my change and release will come.



Dots connection 1,
Last day Resurrection = heavens passing away.



The ungodly are raised on the last day as well
John 12:48
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


Dots connection 2,
Our bodily Glorification and the eternal judgment of the unsaved occur when Jesus comes again to raise us the last day.


Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

Gen 6
12 God looked on the earth and saw how debased and degenerate it was, for all humanity had corrupted their way on the earth and lost their true direction.

13 God said to Noah, “I intend to make an end of all that lives, for through men the land is filled with violence; and behold, I am about to destroy them together with the land.

Saved from wrath after the tribulation.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

You posted a passage, you claim is saying, "before the flood God comes in Judgement".

There is no truth in that interpretation, as applied to either the 7yr trib or the rapture.

Are you aware that postribbers need a model where Noah is removed/ raptured postflood?
And that in the great tribulation there is not billions of wicked people judged or killed pretrib?

 

[David in NJ]

You posted a passage, you claim is saying, "before the flood God comes in Judgement".

There is no truth in that interpretation, as applied to either the 7yr trib or the rapture.

Are you aware that postribbers need a model where Noah is removed/ raptured postflood?
And that in the great tribulation there is not billions of wicked people judged or killed pretrib?

Lovers of God, believe His words.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient,
when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

What was the Divine longsuffering waiting for and why?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Our resurrection and change takes place on the last day, not before

John 6:40
For this is My Father’s will and purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him [as Savior] will have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha replied, “I know that he will rise [from the dead] in the resurrection on the last day.”

Job 14: 12-14

So man lies down and does not rise [again].
Until the heavens are no longer,
The dead will not awake nor be raised from their sleep.

“If a man dies, will he live again?
I will wait all the days of my struggle
Until my change and release will come.



Dots connection 1,
Last day Resurrection = heavens passing away.



The ungodly are raised on the last day as well
John 12:48
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


Dots connection 2,
Our bodily Glorification and the eternal judgment of the unsaved occur when Jesus comes again to raise us the last day.


Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not know or understand until the flood came and swept them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be [unexpected judgment].

Gen 6
12 God looked on the earth and saw how debased and degenerate it was, for all humanity had corrupted their way on the earth and lost their true direction.

13 God said to Noah, “I intend to make an end of all that lives, for through men the land is filled with violence; and behold, I am about to destroy them together with the land.

Saved from wrath after the tribulation.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

There is no rapture in any of what you laid out.
Only judgement.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Noah lived during the greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen and thus why GOD destroyed every living thing!!!

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient,
when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared,
in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Where is the rapture in what you laid out?
You just framed the tribulation, as being illustrated by Jesus, in His flood analogy.

So, in your reasoning, you have Noah taken out of the earth, after the flood, in your postribber workbook?.
A post flood/ postrib rapture ?

You begin to see the incredible folly where your theory leads? ???

You never played it out did you ?

You never test fitted a post flood rapture did you?????

Your teachers have you so duped into believing the impossible.

 

[David in NJ]

Where is the rapture in what you laid out?
You just framed the tribulation, as being illustrated by Jesus, in His flood analogy.

So, in your reasoning, you have Noah taken out of the earth, after the flood, in your postribber workbook?.
A post flood/ postrib rapture ?

You begin to see the incredible folly where your theory leads? ???

You never played it out did you ?

You never test fitted a post flood rapture did you?????

Your teachers have you so duped into believing the impossible.

You have a mind that can process a simple question.

PLEASE establish your recognition of Truth from this simple passage of Truth - 1 Peter 3:20

What was the Divine longsuffering waiting for and why?

 

[CrowCross]

Noah lived during the greatest Tribulation the world had ever seen and thus why GOD destroyed every living thing!!!

I don't disagree....Are you saying the times up to the first rain drop were not "good times" for those living in the days of Noah? Jesus paints a "normal life" picture prior to the flood happening.

But then again...at the end of the tribulation things in that economic society will be completely normal.
After 1/3 of the of grass, trees, fish, ships etc. were destroyed in Rev 8...things got back to normal.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't disagree....Are you saying the times up to the first rain drop were not "good times" for those living in the days of Noah? Jesus paints a "normal life" picture prior to the flood happening.

But then again...at the end of the tribulation things in that economic society will be completely normal.
After 1/3 of the of grass, trees, fish, ships etc. were destroyed in Rev 8...things got back to normal.

And don't forget, Noah is in the ark, prior to the flood. So Noah is gathered into the ark pre-trib.
We also know that the "ark", in typology, would be a type of heaven.

Postrb rapture doctrine, would logically have Noah delivered/ gathered/ raptured, post flood.
Making out God to be confused or senile

Crazy stuff.
Bizarre and so poorly thought out.

Postrib rapture doctrine is actually the "uh oh moment" doctrine.
Every component of their doctrine is "uh oh" once a bible is opened.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have a mind that can process a simple question.

PLEASE establish your recognition of Truth from this simple passage of Truth - 1 Peter 3:20

What was the Divine longsuffering waiting for and why?

I am asking you for an answer.
Then you go unto how my mind works?

Again, such a simple question to you:
Since you and every postribber say the flood represents the trib, where is the rapture, in the flood analogy, that you guys say is the trib????

Does it not HAVE TO BE POSTFLOOD????

 

[David in NJ]

I am asking you for an answer.
Then you go unto how my mind works?

Again, such a simple question to you:
Since you and every postribber say the flood represents the trib, where is the rapture, in the flood analogy, that you guys say is the trib????

Does it not HAVE TO BE POSTFLOOD????

There is Genuine Hope for you and @CrowCross IF you love Christ = Because HE does love you!!!

Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. 14And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. 16But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.

17And He said to them, “What kind of conversation is this that you have with one another as you walk and are sad?”

18Then the one whose name was Cleopas answered and said to Him, “Are You the only stranger in Jerusalem, and have You not known the things which happened there in these days?”

19And He said to them, “What things?”

So they said to Him, “The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. 21But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened. 22Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. 23When they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said He was alive. 24And certain of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said; but Him they did not see.”

25Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

 

[David in NJ]

I am asking you for an answer.
Then you go unto how my mind works?

Again, such a simple question to you:
Since you and every postribber say the flood represents the trib, where is the rapture, in the flood analogy, that you guys say is the trib????

Does it not HAVE TO BE POSTFLOOD????

NOAH & family entered the Ark BEFORE the Wrath of GOD rained down and Flooded/destroyed all living.

The Wrath of GOD did not fall until NOAH & Family were safe Inside the Ark - as Promised by GOD's Love for Noah & us
a.) 1 Thess 1:10
b.) 1 Thess 5:9
c.) Matthew 24:29-31
d.) 2 Thess chapter 2

 

[PinSeeker]

Thanks for that. You have helped confirm the pre-trib rapture of the church with the Noah account.
"38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the [very] day when Noah entered the ark".......at the end of the tribulation it will not be the "good time" like mentioned here.

The Noah account, yes, well... hmmm... <smile> You know... <chuckles>...

Luke, in Luke 17, documents the same discussion Matthew does in Matthew 24. In speaking about the coming of the Kingdom (more on that in a moment), Jesus refers to the days of Noah and the days of Lot in the same light. As you know, I'm sure... <smile> ...Noah and Lot lived centuries apart, but while the circumstances were different, the situation was exactly the same: the wicked were unaware, in Noah's day until the flood came and in Lot's day until the fire came down from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, but in both cases eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building. His point, driven home with two examples, was about the suddenness and the unexpectedness of the coming of the end for the wicked.

Now back to the coming of the Kingdom... For the rapturists here... <chuckles> Think about it... the coming of the Kingdom. That's the very point. In both Matthew 24 and Luke 17, Jesus is talking about the coming of the Kingdom. For believers, the repentant, Jesus's church... why would any serious thought be given to the Kingdom coming and at the same time Jesus removing His church from the Kingdom to keep them from the wrath God then unleashes... upon His Kingdom? The question itself is absolutely, totally absurd in at least two or three ways...

When God's Kingdom comes ~ yes, after the period of tribulation is finished, and after Satan is finally and totally defeated, and after the final judgment executed by Christ is completed, those who are in Christ will stay, not leave, and have eternal life. The wicked are the ones who will "leave"... swept away (as they were in Noah's flood), and "burned up" as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were in the days of Lot, suddenly and completely, as a result of the final judgment. The wicked, the unrepentant, those on the wrong side of the final judgment... on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:41)... are the ones who will... leave... <shudder> ...and be gone from here, just as in Noah's flood, and just as in Lot's day. As Jesus says, having been resurrected to judgment (John 5:29), will depart from Him (Matthew 7:23), they will go away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). They will be subject to God's wrath for eternity... <shudder> ...not here, but in this place where they will depart to, this place of outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51).

There will be no "rapture" in the sense of those in Christ being taken anywhere, by Christ or anyone else. We will stand in the congregation of the righteous in the judgment, and we will be here on earth when heaven is finally brought down to us, just as we "see" along with John in Revelation 21:1-8. Then, all things will have been made new (21:5).

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

Maybe this will clear some things up for... some folks... Noah's flood does not represent the tribulation, it represents... is, actually... God's judgment exacted on the wicked. As such, it is a picture of the final judgment that will be rendered after the time of tribulation, and after Jesus's return, and after the final defeat of Satan. It will be placed upon the wicked, and they will... depart... <shudder> This is the "second death" of Revelation 20.

Grace and peace.

 

[jeffweeder]

Thanks for that. You have helped confirm the pre-trib rapture of the church with the Noah account.

That's a stretch.
Noah was aware of what God was going to do = end all life.
He then spends 70 to 100 years building an ark to save his household lol.
Looks like he knew he was going to be present when the sudden destruction came and only his faith in Gods salvation was going to save him. So shall be the coming of the Son of man.

What about the rest of my post?
Why isn't the last day our resurrection day in Jn 6? It's the last day for the ungodly in JN 12 right?

 

[marks]

And don't forget, Noah is in the ark, prior to the flood. So Noah is gathered into the ark pre-trib.
We also know that the "ark", in typology, would be a type of heaven.

Postrb rapture doctrine, would logically have Noah delivered/ gathered/ raptured, post flood.
Making out God to be confused or senile

Crazy stuff.
Bizarre and so poorly thought out.

Postrib rapture doctrine is actually the "uh oh moment" doctrine.
Every component of their doctrine is "uh oh" once a bible is opened.

I see the ark as a type of Christ. Jesus is our ark.

Much love!

 

[jeffweeder]

There is no rapture in any of what you laid out.
Only judgement.

Lol. Does your rapture include a resurrection and glorification of your body??