Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[1stCenturyLady]

The only way for sin to condemn a born again believer is for them to sin willfully in conscious and deliberate unbelief. What is uncertain is if born again believers can deliberately become unbelievers again.

Yes, a born again Christian with the seed of the Father (the only kind there is that are saved) can apostatize and willfully leave God. They run into false teachers or maybe blame God for the death of their child.

2 Peter 2:
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Judge, I'm sorry, but this sounds like great swelling words of emptiness: "A believer is 'off the hook' in that he has the forgiveness of God that he believes and trusts in to keep him from the eternal penalty of their sin." That is not freedom FROM sin. It is an heretical freedom IN sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Kind of a two sided coin, as I think of it...there are things that comfort and encourage us, but at the same time we do have our part and a race to run, by faith. But it's a mistake to over-emphasize one side at the expense of the other, which is what we too often see.

The problem with being superficial in the things of God is that both sides of the coin are superficial. No real fear, no real glory. No real trembling, no real comfort. No real seeking, no real finding. No real surrender, no real translation into the kingdom realm.

For most here it's mainly pretend.

A little humility and reality would go a long way to advancement in understanding.

 

[amigo de christo]

I was lied to about Christ's standard. They were trying to comfort me (so Id fund them). But I'd rather know what the standard actually is, so I can run the race as to win the prize. It's way beyond "just believe". Christ gave us entry into the race through the cross but did not run it for us. We have to run.

those who love money will often tell one what they do desire to hear and will coddle them .
FOR THAT VERY REASON . they DID NOT LOVE , TRUTH , OR YOU .
They loved ya BILLFOLD . and what was in it .
AND you wonder why EVERYONE is running to teach inclusivty .
THESE hirelings , t hse men of belail .
THEY WANT ALL THE RELIGOINS To mege as one , as well as all the denominations to merge as one
AND IT DARN SURE AINT cause the LOVE GOD , you , me , the gay they pander to
or the false religoins they pander too .
ITS NOT THE WELFARE of the children they seek ,
IT WAS , SHOW ME THE MONEY baby .
That is also why them men and women of belial prosperity preachers nar realm
ALSO SOLD US OUT to the all inclusive we are one mindset .
THEY IN IT , NOT FOR GOD , NOT for you , me , the false religoins
THEY IN IT FOR THE MONEY and THE POWER . we been lied too sister .
THEY PREPARE unto the beast an all inclusive religoin
AND THINK they do GODS WILL .
But they have no idea what happend .
HERE is what happend
WHEN the prophet cometh to ME i will answer that prophet according to the idols of his heart
AND IF THAT PROPHET BE DECIEVED , I THE LORD GOD have decieved that prophet .
AS WELL as all who sit under it sister .
GOD DOES send a lying spirit . HE ALLOWS IT .
BIBLE TIME sister . get b ack in it and pray to GOD for an increase for loving to read it .
WE BEEN DE and CIEVED . badly too . And i say we
i speak not of the sheep , but am highly saddned to see this come upon even the churches .
SO long ago i had a dream I KNOW was of GOD .
And the call has been
WHO will go and procliam to this people that the ecumeincal all inclusive be of satan
and to preach JESUS to them .
WELL someone has too , SO it will be me sister . By grace it will be me . no matter how much
Their hatred increases upon me . someone gotta do something sister , so if it costs me all , THEN SO BE IT . I WILL .
JESUS , JESUS will be g lorified an d all contrary exposed .

 

[Episkopos]

What I see is that people who have been accepted to run the race of faith think they have already made it. It's like getting admission into a university and think it's an automatic degree. But we are to study to show ourselves approved...rightly dividing the word so as not to offend the Lord in either a lack of righteousness or holiness.

 

[amigo de christo]

The problem with being superficial in the things of God is that both sides of the coin are superficial. No real fear, no real glory. No real trembling, no real comfort. No real seeking, no real finding. No real surrender, no real translation into the kingdom realm.

For most here it's mainly pretend.

A little humility and reality would go a long way to advancement in understanding.

for a second i was hoping ol epi was making confesssion and was ready to repent .
THEN as i read it , I REALIZED real quickly he was accusing us YET ag ain of what HE is guilty of doing .
MAN epi , when o when are you gonna realize .
Oh my goodness . I just had a terrifying thought . I was typing when o when are you gonna realize
WHEN IT came to me . ON THE DAY OF THE LORD they will realize . ONLY THEN ITS TOO late .
GET out of this epi . please . I DONT want your destruction . Get out of it .
TURN from it now . Put JESUS , HIS GOSPEL first .

 

[amigo de christo]

What I see is that people who have been accepted to run the race of faith think they have already made it. It's like getting admission into a university and think it's an automatic degree. But we are to study to show ourselves approved...rightly dividing the word so as not to offend the Lord in either a lack of righteousness or holiness.

OH without a doubt i know we must run such a race .
And that we mus endure faithful to THE END .
And i too speak against hyper grace and false walks by even many christains .
BUT , HEY EPI lets look again wat your first line
YOU said
what i see is that people who have been accepted to run the race of FAITH think they have made it .
YET HAVE preached agaisnt FAITH . ITS A RACE OF FAITH EPI , NOT UNBELIEF

 

[Lizbeth]

This is very wrong. The greatest sin of a believer is unbelief and a mixing of holiness with self-interest which is iniquity.

You are not understanding the purpose of regeneration at all. It is not for OUR purpose but for God's.

It is a trial run to see who will measure up to the standard of Christ. Those who fail will be rejected...and most will fail. Many are called but few are chosen.

It's like trying out for the navy seals. God watches and tests us. Those whom He approves of He chastens AND WHIPS into shape.

What percentage make it through the training? Very few indeed. In our time? So few that a child can count them.

And the reason why it is exclusive is because most will fail. The compounded error is in confusing God's HARD judgment on the saints with His easy judgment on the righteous and the humble.


So basically being born again is into the higher race of faith for glory. Most, however, will become vessels of dishonour...as examples of what NOT to do. And because of pride, these will not deviate from a course of failure.

To those who are not turned off by the truth....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling/

The Lord chastens ALL who belong to Him, not just those He "approves" as you are saying. It says in Hebrews "all are partakers" of it, and if you are without chastisement you are illegitimate children (ie, are not HIS).

Regeneration is a "trial run" to see who will "measure up"....?....oh dear. That is apt to stir up carnal religious fear, either that or pride in one's own abilities. To start with, aren't we HIS workmanship? I see the Lord as testing us not so much in a pass or fail way generally, but to see what more work is needed.

 

[Lizbeth]

The problem with being superficial in the things of God is that both sides of the coin are superficial. No real fear, no real glory. No real trembling, no real comfort. No real seeking, no real finding. No real surrender, no real translation into the kingdom realm.

For most here it's mainly pretend.

A little humility and reality would go a long way to advancement in understanding.

I agree things are too superficial in the churches generally, as well as being unbalanced. And false doctrine to boot.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, a born again Christian with the seed of the Father (the only kind there is that are saved) can apostatize and willfully leave God. They run into false teachers or maybe blame God for the death of their child.

2 Peter 2:
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Judge, I'm sorry, but this sounds like great swelling words of emptiness: "A believer is 'off the hook' in that he has the forgiveness of God that he believes and trusts in to keep him from the eternal penalty of their sin." That is not freedom FROM sin. It is an heretical freedom IN sin.

People confuse a freedom from the judgment of the condemnation with the world and the rejection of Christ through unbelief in overcoming as Jesus did.

Many Israelites were saved from Egypt. But almost all of them perished in the training ground of the wilderness. Very few entered into the promised land. With the ones who perished in the desert God was not well pleased. Too many see their time here in pleasing themselves...thinking that is the same thing as surrender to God.

But the race is to be pleasing to God. And God's standard is VERY hard to fulfill. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we warn men.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Kind of a two sided coin, as I think of it...there are things that comfort and encourage us, but at the same time we do have our part and a race to run, by faith. But it's a mistake to over-emphasize one side at the expense of the other, which is what we too often see.

I feel a lot more encouraged now. Before reading Scripture for myself I always felt a need for constant assurance. Deep down it was an acknowledgement that I had no actual fruit.

What is encouraging is seeing God's power at work in my life. I see real results and fruit in my walk. False assurances of salvation no matter what never encouraged me the way walking in actual charity, virtue, and self-control did.

 

[Marvelloustime]

When you do . i want you to notice what the main focus of the apostels who went about preaching was .
And you gonna see real quickly it was not about finding common ground
nor giving out unbelieving jews or gentiles messages about why it might be okay TO NOT bleieve .
THEY preached JESUS . and notice how seriously they warned all they spoke too
about the dire damnation that did await all who heard and beleived not .
IN Fact
look at what john the apostel who spoke more about love in his letter than did any other apostel.
HE did not say as does the incluisivian ,
Oh other relgoins are following the same GOd we do , if they are keeping the beatitutes .
JOHN said this . WHO SO EVER does NOT BELEIVE the TESTIMONY OF GOD
That HE , as in GOD ALL MIGHTY , gave on the SON
CALLS GOD A LIAR .
And guess who john sat under .
And guess who JESUS said , in the gospel of john , about WHO CALLS GOD TRUE .
Ready ,
HE who RECIEVES HIS TESTIMONY has set to HIS SEAL that GOD IS TRUE .
EVEN cornlieus who did much good , many alms
and beleived in THE ONE TRUE GOD OF the jews . HE still had to hear
the words of the gospel of JESUS and BELIEVE in order to be saved .
AND let us take a real good notice about what CORNLEIOUS NEEDED TO DO .
What did cornleious NEED TO DO .
HEAR WORDS OF PETER and he will TELL you what YOU MUST DO .
ANY guesses on who peter preached to cornelious .
AND THANK GOD peter was not an inclusiviain . or he had told cornelious
OH BUD you good , and no mention OF JESUS and having to bleieve on HIM would have been said .
BUT RATHER PETER preached the gospel .
NOW you might be wondering THE WHY behind it all .
WELL .
HOW DID GOD choose to save the world . OH YEAH , by the PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL
to save THOSE WHO . DO BELIEVE .
I have never gotten epi to say that ONE MUST FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS .
GOOD LUCK IF YOU CAN . GO ahead . look around at every single one of his posts .
YOU wanna know what is missing . ITS ALWAYS the same thing too
whether he tells it to the ChURch or an atheist .
THE YE MUST BELIEVE ON JESUS . HE Preaches a false gospel sister . And if i did not love you i would not have warned you so .
DO not heed this man . HE can twist better than anyone i have ever seen . HE rivals TORRO who i talked to in person
years back at the library . SISTER THEY DO BELEIVE A LIE .
And they darn sure can say JESUS IS THE SAVOIR OF THE WORLD while they bring the lie to us .
But go ahead , YOU REMIND the man that it is dire necessary we BELEIVE ON JESUS .
NOW dont buy his ususal line that he says . OH I BELIEVE says epi . BUT HE WILL NEVER GIVE THE ANSWER you ask .
ASK HIM . ASK HIM SISTER .
IF HE TRULY BELEIVES an atheist must repent and BELIEVE ON JESUS or any other religoin .
SEE what line he comes up with to you . probably more mumbo jumbo .

@amigo de christo

 

[Brakelite]

I appreciate you looking out for me but I don't think Episkopos is preaching a false gospel. His teaching that non believers can possibly inherit eternal life is not common but I agree. I don't think he's preaching universalism which is the belief that everyone is getting to heaven. He's saying that they will be judged by Christ by their works, which lines up with

2 Corinthians 5:10

New King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Jesus said No one come to the Father except through Him. Given that He will judge every last person, that's still true, even if they never heard of Him during their life, they're still judged by Him in the end.

This may be surprise to many, but we are all judged according to our works. Christian and non Christian. Believer and non believer. There is no other criteria given in scripture that offers a benchmark outside of the way we live our lives that God uses to decide our destiny.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

These are not easy passages to get hold of, but with respect, I still believe they are addressed to and talking about all believers, whether Jewish or not. People can genuinely know and have received the Lord but be trapped or fall into a religious carnal mindset (of the flesh) of the letter that kills instead of being in the Spirit with things. It takes time after receiving Christ, to grow into being more spiritual in thought and understanding of His word, etc. The carnal mind is enmity with God and we are sometimes battling it, or maybe more precisely needing to put it to rest.

As I understand it, all true believers "live in the Spirit" (Gal 5) because of "having" the Spirit (Rom 8).....but not all are yet "walking" (or even understanding) in the Spirit. That is why we as believers who have the Spirit (and therefore living in it) are instructed or admonished to also walk in it. (Just repeating myself in different words, I wasn't sure I had made the point very well.)

One thing I noticed during the first 30 years of going to church unsaved, and that was not one prayer was answered. Now 100% of my prayers are answered. That is a sign you are filled with the Spirit, because the Spirit knows the will of the Father and tells you what to pray. 1 John 3:21-22 "21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight."

Someone who has been born again of the Spirit has a super-sensitive conscience to obey. That is where the laws of the New Covenant are written.

Romans 7:14-25 should not apply to you at all. And one problem with Galatians 5:17 is the publishers wrote Spirit instead of spirit, meaning our own mind. Because you cannot be in the flesh and in the Spirit at the same time unless you grieve or quench the Spirit. But your super-sensitive conscience should be able to keep you from giving in to whatever sin would quench the Spirit. I'm sure I grieved the Spirit at times when I was not yet mature in the fruit of the Spirit, but never to the point of quenching Him.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

"A believer is 'off the hook' in that he has the forgiveness of God that he believes and trusts in to keep him from the eternal penalty of their sin." That is not freedom FROM sin. It is an heretical freedom IN sin.

If the forgiveness of God is not there for you when you sin, and you do, then you have no hope. You're not going to make it.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

What do you think about the next verses 19-21 that you believe will not give you condemnation? But the last verse says "those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"!

I'm not condemned by Galatians 5:19-21 because I am not 'doing' those things. And if/when I do fail I seek God's forgiveness and cleansing and I am restored.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It is the righteousness that you receive when you are forgiven by God that gets you into the kingdom, not the righteousness of your obedience. No one is obedient to God in all things all of the time for that to be the righteousness by which you enter the kingdom of God. That doesn't mean you can purposely live in disobedience. You would just be showing yourself to be an unbeliever if you did that. It means what actually qualifies you to enter the kingdom is God's forgiveness, not your obedience. If obedience to God's law was how a person entered eternal life then life would have come from the law.

Galatians 3:21
21if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

You don't get the Holy Spirit by which you are seen as righteous in God's sight by obeying laws. You get it by receiving God's forgiveness by faith.

Galatians 3:2.5-6
2 Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a
5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” c

Abraham was not declared righteous by obeying laws, but by believing God's promise of a son. That is how we also are declared righteous, apart from works. That doesn't mean you don't have to obey God's law. It means you are not righteous in his sight on that basis.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If the forgiveness of God is not there for you when you sin, and you do, then you have no hope. You're not going to make it.

One doctrine you probably haven't heard, unless by me, is there are two types of sins. 1. Willful sins against the commandments of God called "the flesh," also called sins unto death. 2. unintentional mistakes caused by immature fruit of the Spirit.

1 John 3:4-5 and 9 is about number 1. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." and "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

1 John 1:7 is about number 2. "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

 

[amigo de christo]

This may be surprise to many, but we are all judged according to our works. Christian and non Christian. Believer and non believer. There is no other criteria given in scripture that offers a benchmark outside of the way we live our lives that God uses to decide our destiny.

yes all will be judged by their works .
And how i shudder for all who called GOD a liar .
And who calls God a liar , HE who beleives NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the Son .
Visualize this next scenario .
On the day of the Lord two men stood before him .
One a very zealous for doing good works , feeding the poor
The other the same very zealous for doing good works , feeding the poor .
But one was cast into the lake of fire
and the other rejoiced in paradise with the LORD forever .
And now a word .
HE who recieves HIS testimony has set to his seal that GOD IS TRUE .
HE who beleives not the testimony that GOD g ave on the SON has called GOD a LIAR .
So who so ever hears the gospel and fails to beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST
OH THEY DO call GOD a liar .
And seeing no man is righteous
LET ALONE one who calls GOD A LIAR is righteous .
I suggest we heed no inclusive god at all .
Rather reminding all of the dire need to BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
and to be doing good works AS WELL .

 

[amigo de christo]

I feel a lot more encouraged now. Before reading Scripture for myself I always felt a need for constant assurance. Deep down it was an acknowledgement that I had no actual fruit.

What is encouraging is seeing God's power at work in my life. I see real results and fruit in my walk. False assurances of salvation no matter what never encouraged me the way walking in actual charity, virtue, and self-control did.

And now lets examine what a false assurance of salvation no matter what .
Because i see an all inclusive god at work and it aint GOD
and its giving out the idea that ALL religoins are serving the SAME GOD as a true christian .
Talk about false assurance . t alk about the working of anti christ and by its peace .
As well as the lukewarm in churches who lips are but hearts are far From GOD . they all in dire grave danger sister .
its time for repentance and time again to POINT only to JESUS .
All will be judged by their works . and beleive you me it is NOT a good WORK to call GOD A LIAR .
LORD who then can be saved , WITH MAN THIS IS impossible but not with GOD .
GOD has chosen to save the world , HOW titus two , HOW did he chose to save the world .
GO to and behold . For it pleased GOD that by the foolish of preaching to save those ...............WHO BELEIVE sister .
WHO BELEIVE .
And when a muslim , an atheist , or any other man or woman
hears the call to repent and beleive ON JESUS THE CHRIST the SON OF GOD , the death burial and RESSUREcTION
and FAILS to believe but remains a muslim etc
OH DEAR . THEY can not cliam ignorance on the day of teh LORD .
Because THEY heard and they WILLFULLY IGNORED the call to BELEIVE ON JESUS the CHRIST .
IN effect they heard and they called GOD A LIAR .
HERE is who calls GOD TRUE .
HE who recieves His testimony has set to his seal that GOD IS TRUE .
HERE is who calls GOD a liar .
HE who believes Not the testimony that GOD gave on the SON is calling GOD a liar .
ALL liars shall have their part in the LOF of great destruction and damnation .
ALL who made and loved A LIE , an all inclusive lie , that made VOID the dire necessity for to bELIEVE ON JESUS
OH they will have their part in the lake that burneth with fire .
This is a fact and as it is written in revelations , LET no man or woman add too or t ake form such words .
ALL unbelievers shall have their part .
I suggest we REMIND all OF the absolute dire necessity to Believe on JESUS
as well as TO be doing good works . be encouarged dear dear sister .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We can't. But God can.

Your not Go9d

They do believe though. The believe the power of the flesh is greater than the power of God.

conquering sin is not sinless perfection.

it is not being bound or enslaved by sin.

 

[ProDeo]

To add to this, I know this because I've been on both sides. As a new born child of God I had a sense of pride because I was 'not like others'. My history didn't include many of life's hardships - addictions, abuse, etc. - and I had a very dramatic conversion experience. Together these made me feel 'special' and more successful in my Christian life than everyone else. Then life happened and I found out I was not so special in that regard. I found out I was untested, not great. And it changed who I am and opened the door to real power in love and ministry.

Wow Judge, you just described my own path, that after 15 years I found out that I was not so holy as I thought and realized with reference to Rom 7:18 that nothing good dwells in my flesh. Was a cold shower, but a needed shower. Now I am thankful.