Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[Douggg]

Do you think Gog is an individual or a country?

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

It appears that Gog will be an individual who is the head of some country. Someone like Putin. He's 73 years old now. So it may not be him. The next leader of Russia instead.

The Gog/Magog event will take place before the end of 2030.

 

[CrowCross]

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

It appears that Gog will be an individual who is the head of some country. Someone like Putin. He's 73 years old now. So it may not be him. The next leader of Russia instead.

Chief Prince is similar to what is called an angel over a land area...like the Prince of Persia...Could Gog be a fallen angel or hybrid? I just heard that suggestion yesterday on Blurry Creatures.

 

[Douggg]

Chief Prince is similar to what is called an angel over a land area...like the Prince of Persia...Could Gog be a fallen angel or hybrid? I just heard that suggestion yesterday on Blurry Creatures.

I don't know. Maybe. I lean toward Gog being a human.

The term Prince of Persia was used in context that an angel sent to Daniel was going to have to battle another angel (the Prince of Persia) on his way back to heaven.

Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 10:20.

 

[rebuilder 454]

yes,

Jesus returns the same way He left. In Acts 1 ...we get the account.
Jesus ascends.

How does Jesus return? Rev 19 speaks of Jesus riding a white horse....BUT....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

This complicates things when looking at scripture because the "return" of Christ gets confusing when one tries to determine when Jesus returns on a white horse and when Jesus returns in the same way He left...which wasn't on a white horse.
That is Jesus returns twice...once in the same manner in which He ascended and then a second time on a white horse.

Exactly.
OK this is huge.
The second coming in no way has the same manner as the ascension.
Act 1 is a powerful witness for the pretrib rapture model.

To add to the postribber dilemma, is the fact that most everybody, living at the time WERE LOOKING FOR A CONQUERING KING.
A POWERFUL WARRIOR MESSIAH.

So the "like manner " description, not only is obviously wrong for a postribber model, but once examined in an unbiased open minded format, it is so powerfully refuting any notion of pointing to postrib rapture.

 

[Davidpt]

Please list the NT verses that teach the clouds in 1 Thess 4.17 are actually angels

Just the verses not opinions :)

If you want to believe something absolutely absurd, that a major gathering doesn't involve angels being involved, then believe what you want. Some of the rest of us still live in the real world. Just because 1 Thess 4 doesn't mention angels that hardly means that it means angels won't be involved in the gathering.

You apparently refuse to interpret Scripture with Scripture in this case, because both Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 already prove that the rapture per 1 Thessalonians 4 involves angels. But because of your doctrinal bias you refuse to accept it.

Here's your verses you requested, the 1st and 2nd verse below.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Both Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 have a trumpet in common. Are you going to argue that the trump of God does not equal a great sound of a trumpet? That would be bizarre if you did. As if the trump of God would not be involving a great sound of a trumpet. That really makes sense, not.

How can you possibly think the trump of God can be trumped by another trumpet because the other trumpet involves a great sound but the trump of God doesn't? Therefore, making the trump of God the lesser of the two. IOW, you apparently must think, the trump of God involves a sound, it just doesn't involve a great sound. Ok, if you say so.

In Mark 13:27 who do you think this is meaning if not those that are raptured and the dead in Christ that rise first? his elect from the uttermost part of the earth, and his elect from the uttermost part of heaven. If that doesn't cover all the dead in Christ that rise first and all those who are alive and remain, then what does cover it?

 

[sondring7]

If you want to believe something absolutely absurd, that a major gathering doesn't involve angels being involved, then believe what you want. Some of the rest of us still live in the real world. Just because 1 Thess 4 doesn't mention angels that hardly means that it means angels won't be involved in the gathering.

You apparently refuse to interpret Scripture with Scripture in this case, because both Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 already prove that the rapture per 1 Thessalonians 4 involves angels. But because of your doctrinal bias you refuse to accept it.

Here's your verses you requested, the 1st and 2nd verse below.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Both Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 have a trumpet in common. Are you going to argue that the trump of God does not equal a great sound of a trumpet? That would be bizarre if you did. As if the trump of God would not be involving a great sound of a trumpet. That really makes sense, not.

How can you possibly think the trump of God can be trumped by another trumpet because the other trumpet involves a great sound but the trump of God doesn't? Therefore, making the trump of God the lesser of the two. IOW, you apparently must think, the trump of God involves a sound, it just doesn't involve a great sound. Ok, if you say so.

In Mark 13:27 who do you think this is meaning if not those that are raptured and the dead in Christ that rise first? his elect from the uttermost part of the earth, and his elect from the uttermost part of heaven. If that doesn't cover all the dead in Christ that rise first and all those who are alive and remain, then what does cover it?

request Please list the NT verses that teach the clouds in 1 Thess 4.17 are actually angels
NONE of your verses teach that 1 Thess 4:17 clouds are angels

 

[Davidpt]

Exactly.
OK this is huge.
The second coming in no way has the same manner as the ascension.
Act 1 is a powerful witness for the pretrib rapture model.

To add to the postribber dilemma, is the fact that most everybody, living at the time WERE LOOKING FOR A CONQUERING KING.
A POWERFUL WARRIOR MESSIAH.

So the "like manner " description, not only is obviously wrong for a postribber model, but once examined in an unbiased open minded format, it is so powerfully refuting any notion of pointing to postrib rapture.

If that's the game you want to play, let's play it. I'm game.

1 Thess 4 involves a trumpet sounding. Where is there a trumpet that was sounding in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

1 Thess 4 involves saints rising from the dead. Where is anyone rising from the dead in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

1 Thess 4 involves saints being snatched up into the sky. Where is any saints being snatched up into the sky in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

Do you not see how absurd all of this is? Now Acts 1 doesn't square with Post Trib nor Pretrib if we play by the demands you are placing on these things.

 

[CrowCross]

1 Thess 4 involves saints rising from the dead. Where is anyone rising from the dead in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

1 Thess 4 involves saints being snatched up into the sky. Where is any saints being snatched up into the sky in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

That's kinda obvious...that is, why not. Or did you expect the resurrection and rapture to occur the same time Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse?

 

[rebuilder 454]

If that's the game you want to play, let's play it. I'm game.

1 Thess 4 involves a trumpet sounding. Where is there a trumpet that was sounding in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

1 Thess 4 involves saints rising from the dead. Where is anyone rising from the dead in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

1 Thess 4 involves saints being snatched up into the sky. Where is any saints being snatched up into the sky in Acts 1 when Jesus was leaving?

Do you not see how absurd all of this is? Now Acts 1 doesn't square with Post Trib nor Pretrib if we play by the demands you are placing on these things.

I never said they were.
Acts one speaks of the APPEARING, NOT THE SUBSEQUENT RAPTURE.

STICK TO THE SUBJECT.
What are the components?????

In YOUR MODEL Jesus comes ONCE.
So , in Acts one is there the context of YOUR MODEL, Or the pretrib rapture model?

Answer ....the pretrib rapture model wins in a no contest.
Just read it for what it is. Stop torturing it.

But hey, you guys are here to fool yourselves so at least you can keep doing that.

So your entire post 100% misses the point.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Acts one "like manner"

Ok postribbers, get busy torturing that.

The Holy Spirit already anticipated what would frame the second coming in a solid doctrine.
It is called reading comprehension

I am so sorry for those that need "Like manner" to read "opposite manner."

Best possible solution is to fire your teachers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly.
OK this is huge.
The second coming in no way has the same manner as the ascension.
Act 1 is a powerful witness for the pretrib rapture model.

To add to the postribber dilemma, is the fact that most everybody, living at the time WERE LOOKING FOR A CONQUERING KING.
A POWERFUL WARRIOR MESSIAH.

So the "like manner " description, not only is obviously wrong for a postribber model, but once examined in an unbiased open minded format, it is so powerfully refuting any notion of pointing to postrib rapture.

Total nonsense, as usual, from you. The manner in which Jesus left was visibly and bodily (it describes them seeing Him ascend towards heaven with their own eyes) and that is the manner in which He will return (every eye will see Him). In no way, shape or form does that support the wildly imaginative pretrib theory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Acts one "like manner"

Ok postribbers, get busy torturing that.

The Holy Spirit already anticipated what would frame the second coming in a solid doctrine.
It is called reading comprehension

I am so sorry for those that need "Like manner" to read "opposite manner."

Best possible solution is to fire your teachers.

LOL. Keep the laughs coming. This is the best you can do to come up with an "argument" against post-trib. Hilarious! He left bodily and visibly when He ascended to heaven and He will descend from heaven in like manner the ONE and ONLY time He descends from heaven in the future.

 

[CrowCross]

Total nonsense, as usual, from you. The manner in which Jesus left was visibly and bodily (it describes them seeing Him ascend towards heaven with their own eyes) and that is the manner in which He will return (every eye will see Him). In no way, shape or form does that support the wildly imaginative pretrib theory.

No white horse....giddy-up.

 

[ewq1938]

No white horse....giddy-up.

No army. No resurrected dead saints, no reverse rapture either.

 

[sondring7]

No army. No resurrected dead saints, no reverse rapture either.

I know you won't watch the following but here it is anyhow

.

 

[CrowCross]

No army. No resurrected dead saints, no reverse rapture either.

One day the light will click on for you...giddy-up.

 

[ewq1938]

One day the light will click on for you...giddy-up.

Same for you....army-up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No army. No resurrected dead saints, no reverse rapture either.

...and no army in 1 these 4, plus a bonus of no uturn.
You have no point.

Acts 1 is a major debunking of postrib rapture.
You are 100% going against scripture for the sake of a poorly poorly thought out doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know you won't watch the following but here it is anyhow

.
View attachment 91280

Yes.
There have always been dispensations.
It means a measure of time.
To say it is not there is fantasy.
I would be measured as an evil dispensationalist.

What a joke.

 

[CrowCross]

Same for you....army-up.

You can army-up......but I'll be going-up.

Things will be like the days of Noah....till it's not.