Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[shepherdsword]

Amen brother. Have you listened to "The Book of Remembrance". It could be a comfort for you. God is merciful...and doesn't forget the service we provide for His own.

On another post you said you didn't agree with me on salvation issues. I was wondering which issue? The 4 eternal destinies? The dual nature of God's judgment (mercy and truth)?

Just wondering if that might help you to find a deeper peace,

The main issue I disagree with is a salvation that is sourced in works (if I understood you correctly) I believe that we will all be judged by our works but that works are not the source of our salvation but a result. I see "faith" and "beleive" through the eyes of mid eastern culture. In the east...you cannot separate faith from the resulting works. In the west....belief and faith can be just mental constructs...not how the bible defines them.

As for The 4 eternal destinies and the dual nature of God's judgment (mercy and truth)? I find these concepts very interesting and I am not prepared to totally reject them at this time. It's just I can't find any historical justification for these terms. I mean if it is solid biblical truth(and I am not saying they aren't) why can't we find anyone else ever saying it? EDIT: Let's add the distinction between righteous and holiness as well

 

[Episkopos]

The main issue disagree with is a salvation that is sourced in works (if I understood you correctly) I believe that we will all be judged by our works but that works are not the source of our salvation but a result. I see "faith" and "beleive" through the eyes of mid eastern culture. In the east...you cannot separate faith from the resulting works. In the west....belief and faith can be just mental constructs...not how the bible defines them.

One must observe that the Western evangelical bent sees ACCURACY of beliefs as necessary for salvation. As if there was a questionnaire to fill out on judgment day. That is a Gnostic bent in the modern church that takes no stock in obedience to God...just beliefs.

Faith on the other hand is recognized by God as something precious. God translates those who have faith into His very presence. That is what the gospel is about. Victory in Christ by grace through faith.

Go to the faith chapter...Heb 11...and notice how Enoch is presented as an example. Why? Because God was pleased with him and TOOK HIM. Paul says...and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son. The evangelicals say they have that positionally...which is the lie of the great delusion. So then was Enoch only "positionally" translated? Or was he translated for real to be with God...He TOOK HIM.

The same goes for the faith OF Christ. In Him we do miraculous things...or it isn't the faith OF Christ.

James says we are justified by faith or by works....which is borne out with many verses...such as the killing by Phinehas (a work) or the sermon on the mount...that describes the KIND OF PERSON....not the beliefs or faith of the person. More of a character judgment.

I find MANY dishonest Christians...will they be saved by their faith or condemned because they are liars? Which wins out?

I say as the bible does that liars are excluded from the kingdom. Period. Faith gets us into the higher walk...but failure in the lower walk gets us rejected in every case. A saint who commits adultery is still an adulterer. Judas Iscariot was a fervent disciple...with a major CHARACTER flaw. Not a belief flaw or a faith flaw...but a faithfulness flaw. So we are taught that even the closest disciple who sins is still a sinner. Whoever sins is a slave of sin. Jesus says that.

So the church is confused on the issue of righteousness. We are saved BOTH by faith and by works for entry into the nations. And we are saved ONLY by faith to walk as a saint in Zion with God. There is no work to getting translated into the kingdom realm. Just like there is no work to flying....just get in the plane. No need to flap one's arms.

As for The 4 eternal destinies and the dual nature of God's judgment (mercy and truth)? I find these concepts very interesting and I am not prepared to totally reject them at this time. It's just I can't find any historical justification for these terms. I mean if it is solid biblical truth(and I am not saying they aren't) why can't we find anyone else ever saying it?

God showed them to me as a restoration of what was understood before the institutionalization of the church. The devil has assumed much of the control of said church by dividing and conquering it. Even the most basic doctrines (trinity) are deviations from the early teachings of the apostles...who received them from Jesus. (God is a Binaty of Father and Son)

 

[Lizbeth]

Then that's good. You received more than just a sample. I was young and foolish when I was first baptized in the Spirit...and I was on my own. The keeping power was there..but I wanted OUT. Too holy for me after a few days. I was too selfish.

The next time was 18 years later...and then I lasted for 2.5 years. That time I lost or fell from grace based on a test I failed...due to a lack of understanding of righteousness. I had an unbalanced view of intimacy with God versus obedience.

You had none of those problems...you just stayed in...which is great.

I believe my own difficulty taught me all the ins and outs, so to speak..where the framework lies...all the pitfalls and the way God judges things. It's for the Body. So I don't feel like an individual so much as a walking lesson on God's ways. I have been learning righteousness these past 25 years or so. Gathering a fellowship of disciples to enter in together.

It sounds as though you tried to figure yourself out and though we may try, we can only go so far doing that. Better to ask God what the problem is, ask Him to shine His light on it....He knows us better than we can ever know ourselves.

 

[Episkopos]

It sounds as though you tried to figure yourself out and though we may try, we can only go so far doing that. Better to ask God what the problem is, ask Him to shine His light on it....He knows us better than we can ever know ourselves.

And since you can't figure yourself out, you need to go to God as I've been telling you for years now.,

I have a very intimate training from God....because I go to Him and wait on Him.

 

[ProDeo]

I doubt your honesty..You flip flop like a flounder on the beach....so wishy washy.

Well, that's a bit of the problem, you mistrust anyone.

But thanks for your honest answer to my honest question.

But

I have sought the Lord and He has responded. No, I have prayed that He not send me into outer darkness. Go to my thread on the Book of Remembrance... God is merciful.

And so I am not far from the truth. You sinned, by accident, and then you felt guilty in such a way you felt lost, needed to repent in tears and even the need to pray for your salvation? Deep deep wounds, failure, disappointment in self. Truth is we were forgiven instantly but the echo of failure in self lasted and lasted.

I am not worthy to be a saint. But God has always visited me with great comfort even in my failure to reach the standard that is in holiness.

Same here, great lesson, wouldn't you say so?

I have prayed for your healing.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

But you applaud the deception. You are part of the problem....can you see that? Judging with your emotional understanding....you become an enemy of the cross. Let go your imagination and follow Christ into HIS reproach. Right now you are so nice that the devil smiles on you....you are no threat at all...in fact he can use you when the riot police try to establish order....you can call them "cruel" ...Poor things.

Have you ever counted the real cost of following Christ? Or have you just responded to an altar call?

@GodsGrace

is not an enemy of the Cross. She is one of the more wise members on here. Not everyone who has anything negative to say about you is an enemy of the cross. You tend to insult people and then accuse them of being emotional or spiritually defective when they object to that. A lot of the objections have truth but they go unheeded because they feed into your belief of being persecuted for the truth.

 

[MostlyConfused]

You are like the rioters who loot and destroy.....and then the softies like yourself...who call out the riot police for trying to maintain order as being cruel.

That was my actual EXACT thought at this persons post. My thought went further though into how they also approve of children being mutilated out of so called “compassion.”

 

[Episkopos]

Well, that's a bit of the problem, you mistrust anyone.

I trust people who stand on their word.

But thanks for your honest answer to my honest question.

Are you being serious?

And so I am not far from the truth. You sinned, by accident, and then you felt guilty in such a way you felt lost, needed to repent in tears and even the need to pray for your salvation? Deep deep wounds, failure, disappointment in self. Truth is we were forgiven instantly but the echo of failure in self lasted and lasted.

Don't try understanding me based on your own emotional roller coaster ride. I'm a logical dispassionate person by nature. Although I do break down when describing something close to my heart...like testimony things.

This is not about a disappointment in myself. This is about a failure that was beyond my understanding...I NEEDED to fail in order to understand what I do now. Failing now is a mercy to me so I don't have to be rejected on judgment day. I can turn things around. So I NEEDED to fail. Now I can warn people who do NOT have the same training I have....so they can also avoid being rejected. Some will listen...most will not.

 

[Episkopos]

That was my actual EXACT thought at this persons post. My thought went further though into how they also approve of children being mutilated out of so called “compassion.”

They call it suicidal empathy....it's just evil with an emotional twist.

 

[GodsGrace]

The main issue disagree with is a salvation that is sourced in works (if I understood you correctly) I believe that we will all be judged by our works but that works are not the source of our salvation but a result.

If we will be judged by our works....
then works are the result of our salvation.

I hope we agree that belief in God must come first.

I see "faith" and "beleive" through the eyes of mid eastern culture. In the east...you cannot separate faith from the resulting works. In the west....belief and faith can be just mental constructs...not how the bible defines them.

Could you explain the above better?
You speak of faith and works.

At the time that the NT was written the Greek language was chosen.
In the Greek language there are two words that cannot be separated...but not the ones you have chosen.

The two words are BELIEVE and OBEDIENCE.
They are one thought and the mind of those writing the NT would not separate the two.
It is not that believing causes obedience...
believing IS obedience.
Not like this: believe = obey
but like this: believe obey

If we believe we will obey.
If we obey we believe...it is one thought, not two combined.

Here is an example:
Hebrews 3:18-19
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


Thought you might be interested re your post.

As for The 4 eternal destinies and the dual nature of God's judgment (mercy and truth)? I find these concepts very interesting and I am not prepared to totally reject them at this time. It's just I can't find any historical justification for these terms. I mean if it is solid biblical truth(and I am not saying they aren't) why can't we find anyone else ever saying it? EDIT: Let's add the distinction between righteous and holiness as well

Holy just means to be set aside for service to God.
Righteous just means to be right with God.

 

[Marvelloustime]

If you examine epi you will find the core root of his problem .
HE like many will bring teachings JESUS did say
But will NOT IMPLY the dire necessity to have to BELIEVE IN HIM .
Thus it makes it all in vain .
In other words , it is like a man simply using the teachings of JESUS
to DENY BELEIF IN JESUS . That IS NOT OF GOD .
The number one message of the very gospel , IS THAT YE MUST FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS.
Not try and do JESUS teachings WITHOUT BELIEVING ON HIM .
That is epis problem . And i promise this is not of GOD .
HOW does Making void the dire need to believe what JESUS DID , iN ANY WAY HONOR THE SON .
AND the command by GOD was WE DO HONOR THE SON and that HE who honors NOT the SON
does NOT honor the father who sent him . THUS to NOT bELIEVE on what JESUS DID and WHO HE IS
MY friend that does not honor him , IT actually calls GOD a liar . that is a fact my friend .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Yes but how WELL does HE really know the bible .
IT would not matter if i had the whole bible memorized , if i twisted the doctrines to fit a lie .
You do realize even the devil can quoate scripture . Better than any man i suppose .
But it dont mean he gonna bring the TRUTH but rather will twist things to imply a lie .
So i am a huge advocate for learning the bible . lets get that clear .
But when a man uses it in a way that not only will not preach the dire need to beleive on JESUS to the lost
but also considers the one who does preach the reminder to BELEIVE ON JESUS , religous extremism
WELL then i ask you again how WELL does HE know , THE GOD WHO INSPIRED the bible .
cause many can quoate , as even a parrot can quoate what it hears .
But it dont mean the parrot or they UNDERSTAND what they say . We do have a problem my friend .
A SERIOUS ONE . When the dire necessity to preach to the lost the dire need to first repent and believe on JESUS
is omi tted and even called religous extremism , WELL guess who just got called
a religious extremists . A HINT , NOT JUST THE PERSON who brought his gospel , BUT JESUS HIMSELF
would have been called one by such a people . THEY ALL preached THE DIRE NEED to BELIEVE on HIM
and epi calls that religous extremisim . Says we need to learn of him about the gospel .
NO sir and no mams . IF that is epis gospel , I DARN SURE DO NOT NEED TO BELEIVE IT nor does any .
WE shall make our stand my friend . UPON THE SOLID STONE of our foundation
upon Christ and the apostels doctrine , gospel . not on what men sell us as a g ospel that actuallly denies THE VERY
gospel that JESUS and the apostels would preach . WE MAKE OUR LAST HOUR STAND NOW .
KEEPING ALL HOPE , ALL confidence IN JESUS CHRIST and not in men who speak contrary .

@amigo de christo

 

[GodsGrace]

There...Amigo is against these things because you didn't say Simon says first...or believe on Jesus first. So you are wrong in his eyes on a technicality. Not enough lip service to be exclusive enough to condemn the righteous enough.

So you didn't appease his condemnation of me based on your emotion...because he wins, like the devil wins, based on your emotions.

Good on you to remain honest and not follow those evil feelings.

I think Amigo lost another vote against the cross.

This is the problem.
You are most difficult to understand.
I really don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Marvelloustime]

sorry epi . I aint the one preaching against the cross .
ITS you preaching against the very gospel of THE ONE WHO WAS Crucified on the cross .
And you aint foolin me epi .
You just up to your usual of twisting things in order to get a following .
No man who makes void the dire necessity to have to believe on JESUS
and then even comes after one who does so to an athieist and calls it religous extremism
is a man i am gonna ever heed .
YOU DO realize you could put this all to a stop right now .
BY SIMPLY SAYING THESE NEXT WORDS .
Hey church its DIRE NECESSARY WE DO BELIEVE ON JESUS and that we FOLLOW HIM and not just be lip service .
GO ON EPI .
hey i tell ya what . You can also go ahead and say
I , as in EPI , believe that muslims and all false religoins must repent and confess JESUS chRIST is LORD
is the SON of GOD that he did die for our sins and the he did rise again .
GO AHEAD epi . let us hear that . and while your at it , go ahead and remind that poor athiest
of HIS dire need to repent and bleieve on JESUS . Go on epi . LETS SEE IT .
And dont duck it with the cliam YOU bELIEVE . YOU say THEY MUST ALSO bELIEVE . go on epi .

@amigo de christo

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is the problem.
You are most difficult to understand.
I really don't know what you're talking about.

epi tries to be charismatic.. Alot of them are hard to understand. But they get followers.

 

[Episkopos]

@GodsGrace

is not an enemy of the Cross. She is one of the more wise members on here.

Well we got to that after her emotional excess. Maybe you can't see why it's unwise to have women as leaders. The West is in sharp decline because of the feminization of society. And the church has followed right along. It was Eve that introduced sin into the world...and Adam went right after her.

You have to keep in mind that you are seeing things as a woman...not being courageous...just a little too touchy feely. It takes real courage to stand for Christ. To allow oneself to be dehumanized and ridiculed...bearing HIS reproach because of the truth.

I see how far people are willing to go...not far at all.

Not everyone who has anything negative to say about you is an enemy of the cross.

That's not the idea...although you have that impression. Enemies of the cross sidestep the cost of the truth....preferring to not ruffle any feathers...if we could all just get along. Playing nice. Did Jesus play nice? Did He ruffle any feathers? Or was He crucified because He got the etiquette wrong? Do you realize how hated Jesus was...and continues to be. I'm a lightweight when it comes to warning people. Wait till judgment day to discover what terror really is.

You tend to insult people and then accuse them of being emotional or spiritually defective when they object to that.

That's backwards. I call out emotionalism that supports a lie. If people can't respond with understanding then they are spiritually defective...they need to go to God. You have to look at the sequence of events.

Have you seen the riots in France? Do you think the police are being cruel with their batons??? Do you side with chaos or order?

Do you realize how emotional you are being right now? Is that your place in the Body?

A lot of the objections have truth but they go unheeded because they feed into your belief of being persecuted for the truth.

That's a perception but is it true? The more deeply I speak the truth...the more people say I'm a false teacher.

Paul said...the more I love the less I be loved. Was he being dramatic? Or was he merely observing things dispassionately.

I observe things dispassionately like a scientist. I give feedback because people mainly live in a utopian idealistic view of heaven and God...and anyone who tries to burst their bubble is seen as false and nasty.

And to the degree that you also hate to be discomfited with the truth, to that degree you have also adopted a utopian view of heaven.

The truth is that the majority of evangelicals are workers of iniquity. WHO is going to like that? Who likes the idea of being spit out of the mouth of Jesus? The fact remains that people care more about themselves than the things of God. All this is prophesied in the bible...but who pays attention to such details???

 

[Episkopos]

If we will be judged by our works....
then works are the result of our salvation.

I hope we agree that belief in God must come first.

For those who repent from wickedness yes...it is this way. First comes conversion then comes the good works. That is for the formerly wicked ones.

But we have accounts in the bible of people who were given the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they were doing good works...like Cornelius the Centurion.

God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. He gives grace to those who are already humble.

Holy just means to be set aside for service to God.
Righteous just means to be right with God.

Not at all.

Holy means you are in the presence of God.

Righteous means you DO what is right.

To be right with God means he sees you as righteous.

 

[GodsGrace]

epi tries to be charismatic.. Alot of them are hard to understand. But they get followers.

Sounds very gnostic to me.
Sounds like the other member knows things we don't know...
or only he knows God but not others...
or he's had some kind of personal experience but not anyone else.
Gnosticism...yeah...he'd be banned from another forum 1, 2 3.

 

[GodsGrace]

For those who repent from wickedness yes...it is this way. First comes conversion then comes the good works. That is for the formerly wicked ones.

But we have accounts in the bible of people who were given the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they were doing good works...like Cornelius the Centurion.

God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him. He gives grace to those who are already humble.

Not at all.

Holy means you are in the presence of God.

Righteous means you DO what is right.

To be right with God means he sees you as righteous.

If you do what is right
you will be right with God.

Here is the meaning of HOLY:

The word holy primarily means set apart, distinct, or connected to God and religion

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sounds very gnostic to me.
Sounds like the other member knows things we don't know...
or only he knows God but not others...
or he's had some kind of personal experience but not anyone else.
Gnosticism...yeah...he'd be banned from another forum 1, 2 3.

He has been banned from many a forum, this seems to be the only one where he is still allowed to preach openly his false narrative