The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[Sel@h]

No believers " make it through the trib"

Heyyyy….Wait a second; you got a scripture for that claim?

 

[CrowCross]

Yep.
No horses
No sword
No conquering king
No mass tribulation with an AC demanding a mark in their heads.
No warrior saints.

Exactly opposite the postribbers model.

Exactly.

 

[CrowCross]

At least Pretribbers, such as you, have some things in common with most Amil posttribbers. They too agree the Acts 1 return is meaning the 1 Thessalonians 4 rapture. They too agree the Acts 1 return has zero to do with Zechariah 14:4. While OTOH, most Premil posttribbers, if not all, agree with the texts instead. That in like manner includes Him returning to the very spot He exited from. IOW, it is not a coincidence that Acts 1, in light of Luke 24, has Him leaving the earth from the mount of Olives, and that Zechariah 14:4 has Him returning to the earth on the mount of Olives.

Jesus returning to the same spot...doesn't make your argument.

Acts says the same way Jesus left.....not the same spot.

 

[sondring7]

It depends on how we define "believers." I believe people can believe and become "Christians" without actually becoming Born Again. Certainly, "Christians" who do not become Born Again can lose their faith. It is, in other words, sort of a semantics issue and should not detract from Postrib Eschatology.

A believer today :-
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13, Col 2:13 < The Gospel taught to Paul by Christ Gal 1:11-12.
Believe you are saved, are HS sealed, are forgiven by trusting in the death burial resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus returning to the same spot...doesn't make your argument.

Acts says the same way Jesus left.....not the same spot.

Is what is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4 the same way Acts 1 records that He left?

1. them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

2. the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

3. and the dead in Christ shall rise first

4. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

The Acts 1 accout.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

You argue it's only meaning the same way He left. Ok, have it your way then.

Now point out where you see 1, 2, 3, and 4 above taking place at the time, when He left.

Be sure to play fair here. You can't insist my argument is not valid then insist yours is.

If the location of His departure has zero to do with the manner of His return, why did the Holy Spirit inspire Luke to explicitly name-drop the Mount of Olives in the very next breath after the angels promised He would return in the same manner?

If the location didn't matter, verse 12 could have just said, "Then they returned to Jerusalem." But Luke deliberately anchors the reader's geography.

Connecting the Prophetic Script---You don't need Zechariah 14 to invent the connection----Zechariah 14 is simply the destination marker that was written centuries before.

Zechariah 14:4 says the Messiah's feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.

Luke 24 / Acts 1 shows Jesus choosing that exact mountain to ascend from.

Jesus knew the Old Testament. He chose the Mount of Olives as His departure point on purpose because He knew the prophecy of His arrival point. It isn't a coincidence; it's a mirrored transaction. He lifted off from the exact landing pad He intends to return to.


Imagine the King of a realm stands at the gates of his capital city. He steps onto his royal chariot, the gates open, and he drives out into the countryside on an official journey. Only a handful of close guards watch him leave. It is a quiet departure.
Before he leaves, his herald tells the citizens---"Do not be discouraged. The King will return in the exact same manner you saw him go."
Years later, the King returns. But this time, word has spread.

The Crowd---Millions of loyal subjects rush out of the city gates to line the highway, cheering, blowing trumpets, and shouting at the top of their lungs to welcome him home.


The Path---The King arrives on the exact same highway, riding the exact same royal chariot, right back to the exact same city gates he left from.

If a critic stood by and said, "This doesn't count as the 'same manner' because it's too loud! When he left, it was quiet! For this to be 'in like manner,' he needs to sneak back in total silence while everyone is asleep!"----everyone would see how foolish that argument is. Or that they argue 'in like manner' doesn't include where he left from and where he returns to---everyone would see how foolish that argument is as well.

The "manner" (hon tropon) is about the King and his vehicle (Christ bodily in the clouds), not the noise level of the subjects welcoming Him.

How He left--- Bodily---into the clouds---away from the Mount of Olives.

How He returns---Bodily--- out of the clouds----back to the Mount of Olives.

 

[Taken]

Look at the way Pretribbers reason things. They don't even bother clearing up any perceived contradictions first. Such as I brought up per my last 2 posts. Just ignore any perceived contradictions and argue from a different angle instead. That's backwards. Clear up any perceived contradictions first, then argue in the manner you are afterwards.

Hi David-
I do believe in what folks are calling a “pre-Tribber”…

I know why.
I have expressly stated why.

Not been on the forum much this past week, and busy this week out of town helping some relatives…

But whatever you are curious about I would be glad to answer whatever from my point of view and why.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

It depends on how we define "believers." I believe people can believe and become "Christians" without actually becoming Born Again. Certainly, "Christians" who do not become Born Again can lose their faith. It is, in other words, sort of a semantics issue and should not detract from Postrib Eschatology.

Agree.
Terms are inter-meshed, yet have specific meanings.
Believer…
Christian…
Converted…

Have Specific meanings.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Truth7t7]

Not the Holy Spirit? Not those in the church with the Holy Spirit? But created celestial being with feathered wings called Archangel Michael?

Just curious, are you 7th Day Adventist?

 

[Davidpt]

Just curious, are you 7th Day Adventist?

That it is absurd. SDAs are Premils. He is not a Premil, not even remotely. If you want to know what he is, check out mountainretreatorg, that's where he gets a lot of his theology from. I might be wrong about the name of the site though---mountainretreatorg--but it's something like that--NM, I found it----www.mountainretreatorg.net/

 

[ewq1938]

DUDE!!!!! You'r not getting it....JESUS DIDN'T LEAVE ON A WHITE HORSE LIKE HE RETURNS IN REV 19. PERIOD.

DUDE!!!!! You'r not getting it....JESUS DIDN'T LEAVE WITH AN ARMY LIKE HE RETURNS IN REV 19. PERIOD.

 

[ewq1938]

@grafted branch

And another way you can keep from being deceived: Ready? Okay. When the first dude who says he’s Jesus appears, real quick, pinch yourself. If you feel physical pain, that dude is a fake—he is the
antichrist.

He can perform miracles so that would not be a reliable test.

 

[sondring7]

He can perform miracles so that would not be a reliable test.

eg people having visions they believe was/is from GOD

 

[ewq1938]

How He left--- Bodily---into the clouds---away from the Mount of Olives.

He left from a city called Bethany. It's near the Mt. but not on it.

Luk 24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

 

[CrowCross]

You argue it's only meaning the same way He left. Ok, have it your way then.

Don't worry, I will.

Jesus doesn't return on a white horse until Rev 19.

 

[CrowCross]

DUDE!!!!! You'r not getting it....JESUS DIDN'T LEAVE WITH AN ARMY LIKE HE RETURNS IN REV 19. PERIOD.

Exactly....which is why 1 Thes 4 is a different return.

 

[ewq1938]

Exactly....which is why 1 Thes 4 is a different return.

Nope, same return. There's only one second coming which is when the resurrection and rapture happen, and shortly after the battle of Armageddon.

 

[sondring7]

Don't worry, I will.

Jesus doesn't return on a white horse until Rev 19.

Rev 19:11 Comes with white horse
Matt 25:31 Comes with Angels
1 Thess 4:17-17 no angels, no horse

Yet some people think these are the same event ?

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 19:11 Comes with white horse
Matt 25:31 Comes with Angels
1 Thess 4:17-17 no angels, no horse

Yet some people think these are the same event ?

Rev 19 is after the Matt 25 and 1 Thess event. Same day.

No two passages about the same event is written exactly the same.

 

[sondring7]

Rev 19 is after the Matt 25 and 1 Thess event. Same day.

No two passages about the same event is written exactly the same.

+++Rev 19 is after the Matt 25 and 1 Thess event. Same day.
First 1 Thess, then Matt 25 then Rev 19

1 Thess
Christ comes in the clouds to gather the dead & alive in Christ (no angels or horse)

Matt 25
Then same day, Christ comes/returns to earth with his angels to gather the elect not raptured in 1 Thess

Rev 19
Then later returns on the white horse

 

[ewq1938]

+++Rev 19 is after the Matt 25 and 1 Thess event. Same day.
First 1 Thess, then Matt 25 then Rev 19

1 Thess
Christ comes in the clouds to gather the dead & alive in Christ (no angels or horse)

An angel is mentioned but that doesn't mean there aren't more. Same for horses.

Matt 25
Then same day, Christ comes/returns to earth with his angels to gather the elect not raptured in 1 Thess

No, this is the one and same rapture event. Why would Christ return twice for two raptures in the same day?

Rev 19
Then later returns on the white horse

After the resurrection and rapture, he will descend with his complete army above Armageddon.