Stop Believing the "Any Moment" Myth

[shepherdsword]

Did you read my post?
I am NOT SAYING IT IS INCORRECTLY translated.

I am saying you guys never look anything up.
AS YOU JUST SHOWCASED.
apostasia
apostasia
G646
n_ Nom Sg f
FROM-STANDing.
(Hello...IT SIMPLY TRANSLATES "DEPARTURE".
THE LITERAL would read "a departure first".
It is simply a fact.)

This is just sheer ignorance.

The comedy is that WHEN THE LITERAL IS PRESENTED, It invokes such scrambling and dancing around.

I have HONESTLY looked at it and agree it is a departure from the faith.( studied it almost 50 yrs ago)
The difference is:
1) it has no actual bearing in the debate as some "smoking gun"
2) I can read the literal translation in rest, and accept what is there. Or go with what is implied.( from the faith)
3) you guys have no idea that either way it HARMONIZES PERFECTLY with the pretrib rapture model.

No, it supports post trib to anyone with an unbiased opinion.

IOW the difference is I have no dog in that fight. I am only correcting what you guys have not studied.

LOL.... "we" have not studied? That's a laugh. I have studied the word much deeper that the cursory google searches you pass off as "study"

Let's see what AT Robertson(greatest greek scholar of all time) has to say:

Your errant argument is DESTROYED

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why would I be deceived? I know when Jesus when shows up...we go up.

The danger is with your belief. You don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. In fact it is YOU who is looking for Jesus to show up and establish His kingdom. When the false Jesus arrives why would I follow him? On the other hand it is likely you'll follow the false Jesus when he shows up being a believer this Jesus is the real Jesus.

The rider on the white horse of Rev 6 is a likely candidate for your deception.....

So, I ask you again...why would it be dangerous for me?

Plus maybe they will kept their postribber doctrine to the point of, at the rapture, telling Jesus what they tell us, " you can't be Jesus, you have to go back to heaven and wait till we say you can come".
Rejecting God and the rapture?????
Maybe they will do that since they have programmed themselves outside of the Bible verses.

 

[CrowCross]

It is used as rebellion in the Septuagint in several places. It is NEVER used as a departure from a physical place...only authority:

Passage	Context
Joshua 22:22	Israel's concern about rebellion against the LORD
2 Chronicles 29:19	Objects associated with unfaithfulness during the reign of Ahaz
2 Chronicles 33:19	Manasseh's unfaithfulness and sins
Jeremiah 2:19	Israel's wickedness and turning away from the LORD
1 Maccabees 2:15	The king's representatives pressuring Jews to abandon their religious practices

The two New Testament occurrences​

A. Acts 21:21 — “to forsake Moses”​

The Greek phrase is:
ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ Μωϋσέως
apostasian didaskeis apo Mōuseōs
“You teach … to forsake Moses.”
Paul is accused of teaching Jews living among Gentiles to abandon Moses, including circumcision and Jewish customs. Here, apostasia clearly describes an alleged abandonment of an established religious commitment.



Notice the construction: ἀποστασίαν ἀπὸ Μωϋσέως — apostasian apo Mōuseōs, literally, “apostasy/departure from Moses.”
The word itself does not mean “rapture” in this passage.

B. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 — “the falling away”​

The Greek reads:
ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον
ean mē elthē hē apostasia prōton
“Unless the apostasy comes first.”
The King James Version translates apostasia as “a falling away.” Other translations use “the rebellion” or “the apostasy.”


The surrounding passage says that the day in question will not come until the apostasia occurs first and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
The key question is whether apostasia here means:

• Religious defection: a departure from the faith or rebellion against God.
• Political or spiritual revolt: a rebellion against established authority.
• Physical departure: a departure from one place, an interpretation proposed by some in discussions of the rapture.

The first two fit the established usage of the noun well. The third is debated, particularly among interpreters who understand this passage to refer to the pretribulation rapture. The word's basic meaning alone does not establish that interpretation.

3. How was apostasia used in the Greek Old Testament?​

The Septuagint (LXX), the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, uses this word in contexts involving rebellion or religious unfaithfulness.

Passage	Context
Joshua 22:22	Israel's concern about rebellion against the LORD
2 Chronicles 29:19	Objects associated with unfaithfulness during the reign of Ahaz
2 Chronicles 33:19	Manasseh's unfaithfulness and sins
Jeremiah 2:19	Israel's wickedness and turning away from the LORD
1 Maccabees 2:15	The king's representatives pressuring Jews to abandon their religious practices

These examples demonstrate that the word family was used for rebellion, defection, and unfaithfulness, not exclusively for the end-times apostasy. Some Greek manuscript traditions have a related noun rather than apostasia in certain Old Testament references, so individual occurrences should be checked against the specific edition.

4. Does apostasia ever mean a physical departure?​

This is the important distinction.
The Greek lexicon Liddell–Scott–Jones records the noun as meaning “defection” or “revolt,” and also lists a less common sense of “departure” or “disappearance.” Therefore, it would be inaccurate to claim that physical departure is impossible as a meaning of the Greek word.

However, a possible dictionary meaning is not proof that a particular passage uses that meaning.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the immediate context and the noun's established biblical usage favor rebellion or apostasy. To establish a physical departure interpretation, one would need additional contextual and historical-linguistic evidence.
One final distinction: The related verb ἀφίστημι (aphistēmi, Strong's G868) can mean “depart,” “withdraw,” or “fall away.” That does not automatically make every occurrence of the related noun apostasia a physical departure.
My conclusion: apostasia can express the idea of departure in a broad sense, but its biblical usage most clearly supports defection, rebellion, or abandonment of a religious commitment. Whether 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to a specific end-times apostasy is a contextual and interpretive question, not something the word alone settles.




The context is clear...."apostacy" means to depart from the faith. Any other vain attempt at defining it as a physical departure is clutching at straws

The apostasia is a physical departure.

led Zeppelin in their song stairway to heaven tells us in the second verse....
"There's a sign on the wall, but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings"

For example the word "dust" can mean to remove small particles from a surface such as furniture or a shelf OR it can mean some sort of rebellion such as "kick up the dust" ...for example...a crowd clashing, rioting, or fighting in the streets. That is being rebellious. Or also seen as an unruly group of citizens or mutinous soldiers started an insubordination against a government.

Do you agree that sometime words have two meanings?

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is just sheer ignorance.

No, it supports post trib to anyone with an unbiased opinion.

LOL.... "we" have not studied? That's a laugh. I have studied the word much deeper that the cursory google searches you pass off as "study"

Let's see what AT Robertson(greatest greek scholar of all time) has to say:
View attachment 91953
Your errant argument is DESTROYED

Are you really that ignorant???
I ALREADY TOLD YOU I AGREE THAT "FROM THE FAITH" IS IMPLIED.
HUH???
Turn on what little brain you are operating in.

We AGREE it is "from the faith"
Duh...as AT Robertson is saying
Duh.

 

[CrowCross]

This is just sheer ignorance.

Hmmmmmmmm, so if someone disagrees with you...they're ignorant?

It appears the @rebuilder 454 has done a great deal of looking into...research...on this topic which would indicate He's not ignorant. In fact he seems to be more learned on this topic than YOU which would make you the more ignorant one.

 

[shepherdsword]

Are you really that ignorant???
I ALREADY TOLD YOU I AGREE THAT "FROM THE FAITH" IS IMPLIED.
HUH???
Turn on what little brain you are operating in.

We AGREE it is "from the faith"
Duh...as AT Robertson is saying
Duh.

Robertson said the term disputes the theory of an imminent return because important things had to take place first.(I.E. The falling away) Read part circled in red. I know someone is on the ropes when they start hurling insults like an immature little child. Pathetic.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is just sheer ignorance.

No, it supports post trib to anyone with an unbiased opinion.

LOL.... "we" have not studied? That's a laugh. I have studied the word much deeper that the cursory google searches you pass off as "study"

Let's see what AT Robertson(greatest greek scholar of all time) has to say:
View attachment 91953
Your errant argument is DESTROYED

QUOTE
"No, it supports post trib to anyone with an unbiased opinion"

I thought you said "unbiased"
Read it for the first time without your postrib rapture spectacles.
1) A falling away.
2) THE AC REVEALED

Hello, WE PRETRIBBERS ASCRIBE TO THAT 100%
You have no clue do you ?
You are Unable to comprehend.
You are literally unaware we agree and are crazily batting the air.
Part of it is in ALL YOUR IGNORANCE of what we believe.

And BTW..apostasia literally translates "from standing"
Ahem... "departure".
Way too deep for you, apparently

 

[shepherdsword]

Hmmmmmmmm, so if someone disagrees with you...they're ignorant?

When they demonstrate a lack of knowledge, yes.

It appears the @rebuilder 454 has done a great deal of looking into...research...on this topic which would indicate He's not ignorant. In fact he seems to be more learned on this topic than YOU which would make you the more ignorant one.

He is as totally clueless as you are. I have shown it's usage (never departure from a physical place) in both the Old and New testaments. I have shown it's common usage in Attic and I have cited an actual master scholar that supports my position. "nuff said"

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hmmmmmmmm, so if someone disagrees with you...they're ignorant?

It appears the @rebuilder 454 has done a great deal of looking into...research...on this topic which would indicate He's not ignorant. In fact he seems to be more learned on this topic than YOU which would make you the more ignorant one.

Shepardword is trying to look intelligent, while his postribber glasses are fogged up.

I am 100% aware of every theological angle of "apostasia" and every possibility of the "implied" vs The literal.
It just shows you how, not only I'll informed they are , but also how unaware they are of what is literal and what is implied.

 

[shepherdsword]

QUOTE
"No, it supports post trib to anyone with an unbiased opinion"

I thought you said "unbiased"
Read it for the first time without your postrib rapture spectacles.
1) A falling away.
2) THE AC REVEALED

Hello, WE PRETRIBBERS ASCRIBE TO THAT 100%
You have no clue do you ?
You are Unable to comprehend.
You are literally unaware we agree and are crazily batting the air.
Part of it is in ALL YOUR IGNORANCE of what we believe.

And BTW..apostasia literally translates "from standing"
Ahem... "departure".
Way too deep for you, apparently

I guess you missed the "that day shall not come EXCEPT" part. There goes the pre-trib myth.

 

[shepherdsword]

Shepardword is trying to look intelligent, while his postribber glasses are fogged up.

I am 100% aware of every theological angle of "apostasia" and every possibility of the "implied" vs The literal.
It just shows you how, not only I'll informed they are , but also how unaware they are of what is literal and what is implied.

LOL....I guess you know more than a master greek scholar. AT Robertson is the best. All you have is insults. The true facts elude you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When they demonstrate a lack of knowledge, yes.

He is as totally clueless as you are. I have shown it's usage (never departure from a physical place) in both the Old and New testaments. I have shown it's common usage in Attic and I have cited an actual master scholar that supports my position. "nuff said"

Lol.
Now look up the word "agree"
That will be your next challenge.
Then see what that would do to your deal, when I have told you 3 times we agree.
Are you calling yourself ignorant and clueless?
You really want to know why you continue this nonsense?

Because you postribbers not only hate our doctrine but despise us as well.
I tell you we agree, and your venum intensifies??????

 

[shepherdsword]

Lol.
Now look up the word "agree"
That will be your next challenge.
Then see what that would do to your deal, when I have told you 3 times we agree.
Are you calling yourself ignorant and clueless?
You really want to know why you continue this nonsense?

Because you postribbers not only hate our doctrine but despise us as well.
I tell you we agree, and your venum intensifies??????

If you understood the implications of what that agreement has to your position you would be a post tribber. As for "venom" It is you who is hurling insults.
Goodbye

 

[CrowCross]

I have HONESTLY looked at it and agree it is a departure from the faith.

I understand what you're saying but...

I've read the verse and "faith" isn't mentioned in the verse. People...scholars...insert "from the faith" into 2 Thes 2:3 where it says...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the departure (from the faith) comes first...."from the faith" is assumed.

In the context I read it 2 Thes 2 is speaking of the "gathering"....as most agree that the gathering means the rapture.
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him....I see this departure as the gathering...the rapture.

Paul then goes on to explain it again in verse six.... 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed...

I believe the restrainer to be the Holy Spirit working through the christians fighting against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers the present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Eph 6) ....as the Holt Spirit filled christians restrain the "enemy" by putting on the full armor...praying against the enemy.

At the rapture, gathering, departure, the restrainer is removed...that is the christians are removed from battle field earth...no longer there to fight against the enemy allowing the unrestrained antichrist to do his thing.....IMHO.

 

[Sel@h]

Plus maybe they will kept their postribber doctrine to the point of, at the rapture, telling Jesus what they tell us, " you can't be Jesus, you have to go back to heaven and wait till we say you can come".
Rejecting God and the rapture?????
Maybe they will do that since they have programmed themselves outside of the Bible verses.

Come on, guys; we’ve shared lots of Scripture with y’all. So why do you accuse us like that?

 

[CrowCross]

When they demonstrate a lack of knowledge, yes.

He is as totally clueless as you are. I have shown it's usage (never departure from a physical place) in both the Old and New testaments. I have shown it's common usage in Attic and I have cited an actual master scholar that supports my position. "nuff said"

It appears you didn't read post 43.

 

[rebuilder 454]

""I guess you missed the "that day shall not come EXCEPT" part. There goes the pre-trib myth.quote]""


MY REPLY
""You mentioned earlier "unbiased"
So read it without your doctrinal prejudice.:
"3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Apostasy FIRST.
REVEALED NEXT.

THAT is ALL it is saying.
Look at how you spin it:
"Apostacy , and the AC in power "
Nope.
It says "revealed"
Now look up "revealed ".
It is a common word.
A word you guys ALL MISSED.
ALL OF YOU MISSED IT.
This ignorant man can read.
I know what "revealed" means.
It means....cue drumroll...." revealed".
All these years you guys could not read what it says.
Yet another passage you guys screwed up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Come on, guys; we’ve shared lots of Scripture with y’all. So why do you accuse us like that?

Lol.
I am not serious.
You were.
I showed you how easy that silliness is.
You went there.
I followed you.

 

[Sel@h]

Thes 2:3 where it says...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the departure (from the faith) comes first...."from the faith" is assumed.

What translation are you using? My KJV doesn’t use the word “departure.”

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[CrowCross]

I guess you missed the "that day shall not come EXCEPT" part. There goes the pre-trib myth.

yes, the departure...the gathering, the rapture, the removal of the restrainer. See post 54. Address that or you can call me ignorant and end with "nuff said".