Stop Believing the "Any Moment" Myth

[Sel@h]

I don’t see the word “departure.” Wow!

 

[CrowCross]

What translation are you using? My KJV doesn’t use the word “departure.”

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is true the KJV doesn't use the word departure...but...these early translations do.

The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING

If you noticed the word was improperly changed in 1582.
Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.

The changing of the world was a theological bias based reason ...rather than a literal direct translation.

The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard or perception of the word "apostate" seen in modern bibles.

 

[CrowCross]

I don’t see the word “departure.” Wow!

See my above reply.

 

[Sel@h]

Can you post the whole passage using that ”departure“ word?

 

[CrowCross]

Can you post the whole passage using that ”departure“ word?

Is this what you're looking for?

Geneva Bible of 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

 

[Sel@h]

Is this what you're looking for?

Geneva Bible of 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Yes, that’s what I was looking for. Thanks.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, that’s what I was looking for. Thanks.

"From the faith" is implied

 

[Sel@h]

Is this what you're looking for?

Geneva Bible of 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

"From the faith" is implied

Thank you for kindly sharing that.

 

[CrowCross]

Thank you for kindly sharing that.

People assume it's from the faith. It's what we learned on the felt boards.

 

[Sel@h]

What’s a felt board?

 

[CrowCross]

What’s a felt board?

A felt board was what they used 'back then" in Sunday School where they stuck material cut out into characters onto a felt board to present a lesson.

I was using it as an example of how people often believe or interpret their scripture on how they were first taught.

 

[ewq1938]

I understand what you're saying but...

I've read the verse and "faith" isn't mentioned in the verse. People...scholars...insert "from the faith" into 2 Thes 2:3 where it says...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the departure (from the faith) comes first...."from the faith" is assumed.

Departure "from the Earth" is assumed by Pretrib but the word apostasia does not mean a physical departure. It only means an Apostasy of some type.

So, Post trib uses the REAL definition while Pretrib uses a FALSE definition. Post trib is not assuming anything.


It should scare you that you are hoping the apostasia is the rapture when it is the Apostasy from Christ to the antichrist.

 

[JimKnox]

LOL....I guess you know more than a master greek scholar. AT Robertson is the best. All you have is insults. The true facts elude you.

You are out of touch.
Metzger is considered by many today to have surpassed anything Robertson created.
Robertson died in 1934. He didn't even survive long enough to have seen the Dead Sea Scrolls. His work has been eclipsed for that fact alone.
Try to keep up, ok? Your arrogance is misplaced.
(And I don't even LIKE Metzger.)

 

[shepherdsword]

You are out of touch.
Metzger is considered by many today to have surpassed anything Robertson created.
Robertson died in 1934. He didn't even survive long enough to have seen the Dead Sea Scrolls. His work has been eclipsed for that fact alone.
Try to keep up, ok? Your arrogance is misplaced.
(And I don't even LIKE Metzger.)

LOL....how ignorant can you be! Less than 5% of the dead sea scrolls were written in Greek and the dead sea scrolls did not contain any new testament manuscripts. And you call me arrogant...LOL.

Oh yeah, try to keep up...

 

[TribulationSigns]

You might be deceived by the first jesus who shows up and end up worshiping him, thus getting caught up in the great apostasy.

First Jesus? What a wild speculation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where is the "end of heaven" mentioned in verse 27?

The verse is referring to the elect being gathered from the entire earth, which I believe refers to the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain until Christ's future coming and also from all of heaven which I believe represents the souls of the dead in Christ. Do you disagree? If so, why?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you read my post?
I am NOT SAYING IT IS INCORRECTLY translated.

I am saying you guys never look anything up.
AS YOU JUST SHOWCASED.
apostasia
apostasia
G646
n_ Nom Sg f
FROM-STANDing.
(Hello...IT SIMPLY TRANSLATES "DEPARTURE".
THE LITERAL would read "a departure first".
It is simply a fact.)

The comedy is that WHEN THE LITERAL IS PRESENTED, It invokes such scrambling and dancing around.

I have HONESTLY looked at it and agree it is a departure from the faith.( studied it almost 50 yrs ago)
The difference is:
1) it has no actual bearing in the debate as some "smoking gun"
2) I can read the literal translation in rest, and accept what is there. Or go with what is implied.( from the faith)
3) you guys have no idea that either way it HARMONIZES PERFECTLY with the pretrib rapture model.

IOW the difference is I have no dog in that fight. I am only correcting what you guys have not studied.

You acknowledge that it refers to a departure from the faith, but still somehow conclude that the rapture will occur before that despite Paul explicitly teaching that the coming of Christ and rapture (gathering) will occur after that. Unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks precious friend, appreciate your valuable input.

imho, God's Sound Doctrine Cannot Be Established By "using one verse only" ( as Many think? ),
so with These Bible Study Rules, I also studied this out in my 18-month:

God's Great ( Pre-trib ) GRACE Departure! Venture, if you care to take a look ​

-------------
Part (9) God's Removal Of His Body!

Precious friend(s) about midway of 17 parts, for your Careful consideration:

Please let us all prayerfully ask God's Question, Through His One Grace apostle, Paul,

"What Saith The Scripture?":​

”...he who withholdeth/hindereth Until Taken Out of the way.​

And Then shall that Wicked be revealed!...” (2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a AV)​

First, Carefully Note The 'Timing Words' Of God In This Important Passage! Amen?

Next!:

Many are having Great difficulty interpreting The "falling away ( greek apostasia )"
In verse 3. Some would have us to believe that "He who withholdeth/hindereth" is:

Actually interpreted as "those Great number today who are going into apostasy,

departing 'from the faith.'"​

So we wish to kindly/humbly ask: When The last one has 'fallen away', does that then mean:

"they were Taken Out of the way"? And, only Then will "The Wicked one be revealed"?​

Did they then "take themselves" out of the way? Does that make any sense?
More sensible, if this idea is true, would be:

"They who withholdeth/hindereth" [ Changing Scripture ] Correct?​

So What is "The Departure ( 'Taken Out Of the way' ) Truth" That God Gave Paul in This Passage?

We perceive it is not a Great departure "from the faith," as these propose, because:

A) Did we not Already have that, almost 2000 Years ago?:

"...all they which are in Asia be turned away from me [ Paul ]!..." (2 Timothy 1:15 AV)​

​

In addition, God Revealed To Paul, this Plain And Clear Statement, For "our Last Days!":​

​

"Now The Spirit Speaketh Expressly, that in the latter times Some shall depart​

from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils!"​

(1 Timothy 4:1 AV)​

​

So, may we humbly And kindly ask: Why are many Still looking for:​

​

"a Great Apostasy ("interpretation"? of "falling away")" and for the man of sin, son of Perdition?​

B) Please bear with, for a moment, this Very brief Greek lesson?:

In 1 Timothy 4:1 AV that "departure { greek aphestemi }" is "from the faith!"​

cp Hebrews 3:12 AV: "Departing { "same" greek aphestemi )" Is "From The Living God!!"​

Thus, with a Different Original word, a departure { apostasia } 'from the faith' interpretation ​

would be incorrect, Correct?​

​

[ btw, I am a simpleton, not a language scholar, thus this explanation above will be​

my only brief attempt at such a thing. The rest will just be plain English. Thanks. ]​

to be continued...

Paul was absolutely not saying that a physical departure would occur first before the second coming occurs. The mass apostasy/falling away is global, not just in the ancient province of Asia or anything like that. You are going out of your way to deny the truth that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2. The coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him (rapture) will not occur until mass global apostasy occurs first. That is what Paul taught and what you are going far out of your way to deny.

 

[JimKnox]

LOL....how ignorant can you be! Less than 5% of the dead sea scrolls were written in Greek and the dead sea scrolls did not contain any new testament manuscripts. And you call me arrogant...LOL.

Oh yeah, try to keep up...

And yet you TOTALLY ignored the salient point: I our buddy Robertson is a has been since Metzger has eclipsed him.

Go ahead and mock. That's what 2nd graders do.

 

[rmb60]

Departure "from the Earth" is assumed by Pretrib but the word apostasia does not mean a physical departure. It only means an Apostasy of some type.

So, Post trib uses the REAL definition while Pretrib uses a FALSE definition. Post trib is not assuming anything.


It should scare you that you are hoping the apostasia is the rapture when it is the Apostasy from Christ to the antichrist.

The beast mark will occur during the tribulation and by taking it you are ensured a ticket to the lake of fire equals you have lost salvation.
Based on the writings of Paul what is required of you to lose salvation today ?